CIA declassifies proof Hitler alive in 1955

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Granted, I am probably more open to "alternative possibilities" than many other people, but I find it curious how accepting bright people are of "official stories" with little or no evidence, when those making the claim have a vested interest in saying what they are saying, and when governments are constantly caught lying.

I'd make the odds of Hitler escaping maybe 10%, but if anything I am probably underestimating it.

Here's the evidence.

1. Witnesses and Russia claim he was dead.

I ask myself, what would a bunch of loyal Nazis say given they would most likely be trying to protect him?

I ask myself, what would Russia say about a madman that killed millions of people even if we won the war? Would they say he's still at large?

2 The bodies were burnt and no photos were taken.

Why? In the pre DNA era this would be the most logical way for people to disguise dead bodies.

3. The bodies were supposedly exhumed years later, cremated, and the ashes spread around.

Why?

4. The bone fragments that Russia said were his were later DNA tested and determined to not be his.

5. The US helped Nazi scientists sneak out of Germany and we know many leading Nazis actually did actually escape because they were later caught by Israel around the world.

6. It is believed that the Nazis built hidden escape compounds in Argentina and elsewhere in the region.

7. Reports of ex Nazis, Hitler, and troves of Nazi material all come from the same region where Nazis reportedly escaped and were eventually caught.

So I am supposed to be certain that Hitler died in the way it was officially reported when there is no body, no photo, those telling me he died had a vested interest in claiming that, one bit of physical evidence did not check out, and there were clearly high ranking Nazis that escaped?

If this were a trial, there would clearly be reasonable doubt.

I missed one important piece of evidence supporting him being dead. There was dental evidence from a jaw the Russians had that matched xrays of Hitler taken while he alive, but that jaw was never DNA tested like the bone fragments.

[Marshall Bennett]

I'm not sure there would have been a route in getting him out anyway. The Soviet army had Berlin virtually surrounded and were practically beating down the door to get to him. If I remember right there was this huge wall surrounding where they burned his remains. I believe they were pretty much sealed in like sardines.

[elysiantraveller]

I'll respond in post as its easier.

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Granted, I am probably more open to "alternative possibilities" than many other people, but I find it curious how accepting bright people are of "official stories" with little or no evidence, when those making the claim have a vested interest in saying what they are saying, and when governments are constantly caught lying.

I'd make the odds of Hitler escaping maybe 10%, but if anything I am probably underestimating it.

Here's the evidence.

1. Witnesses and Russia claim he was dead.

I ask myself, what would a bunch of loyal Nazis say given they would most likely be trying to protect him? Those Nazis were handed over to the NKVD and interrogated that. Afterwards they spent 8 years in Soviet Labor Camps. The stories remained consistent.

I ask myself, what would Russia say about a madman that killed millions of people even if we won the war? Would they say he's still at large? Yes. Stalin absolutely despised Hitler. This is the same man that had Trotsky assassinated while he posed no threat in Mexico.

2 The bodies were burnt and no photos were taken.

Why? In the pre DNA era this would be the most logical way for people to disguise dead bodies.

They were a little pre-occupied with finishing their duties and planning their own breakout after Hitler authorized the breakout from said bunker.

3. The bodies were supposedly exhumed years later, cremated, and the ashes spread around.

Why?

Why does that mean he escaped?

4. The bone fragments that Russia said were his were later DNA tested and determined to not be his.

Woman under 40? Eva Braun? Who cares there were lots of bone fragments...

5. The US helped Nazi scientists sneak out of Germany and we know many leading Nazis actually did actually escape because they were later caught by Israel around the world.

So they helped Hitler?

6. It is believed that the Nazis built hidden escape compounds in Argentina and elsewhere in the region.

There is not a lot of proof of it. The ratlines that Nazi's used to escape were largely in place after the war and not during it. They also were typically in areas liberated by the Allies after the war not the Soviets who clamped down hard.

7. Reports of ex Nazis, Hitler, and troves of Nazi material all come from the same region where Nazis reportedly escaped and were eventually caught.

Again most of these ratlines were in place after the war ended. Eichmann is a good example of it. The fact that Nazis went to Argentina (which makes perfect sense) doesn't lend any credence to the idea Hitler did given it is known he was in the Fuhrerbunker when the Soviet encirclement happened.

So I am supposed to be certain that Hitler died in the way it was officially reported when there is no body, no photo, those telling me he died had a vested interest in claiming that, one bit of physical evidence did not check out, and there were clearly high ranking Nazis that escaped?

If this were a trial, there would clearly be reasonable doubt.

Except for the fact those closest to him all reported his death the exact same way under what anyone would consider extreme duress? Except a breakout at that point in time was completely impossible? Still not enough here are the dental records and findings. Not quite as headline grabbing but definitely conspiracy killing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Marshall Bennett

I'm not sure there would have been a route in getting him out anyway.

Underground tunnels to airport. Not sure what window of opportunity there was to get him out via air...what was the last day he was seen in Germany (before his suicide)?

Apparently, theory is he went via air to Spain and stayed with Franco for a spell, then traveled via submarine to Argentina...

My thing is a whole lot of high level Nazis DID escape Germany...if that didn't happen, then I'd put zero stock in Hitler escaping...

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Underground tunnels to airport. Not sure what window of opportunity there was to get him out via air...what was the last day he was seen in Germany (before his suicide)?

Apparently, theory is he went via air to Spain and stayed with Franco for a spell, then traveled via submarine to Argentina...

My thing is a whole lot of high level Nazis DID escape Germany...if that didn't happen, then I'd put zero stock in Hitler escaping...

1) I think it was about a month prior.

2A) Getting him out via air is highly unlikely as his pilot was in the bunker with him. Secondly, allies ruled the air including the Soviets.

2B) Franco wasn't going to help him at that point. Franco was smart and backed winners. There would have been nothing to gain by assisting the Fuhrer.

3) Again most those high level Nazi's were not inner circle Nazis and escaped well after the war had ended.

[classhandicapper]

elysiantraveller,

What you are doing is countering what I am saying with logical alternatives in the same way I countered the official narrative with logical questions given that the official story seems a little shaky.

I can't imagine myself committing suicide and asking for my body to burned. I can think of loads of things I'd want done with my body (buried being the most obvious), but burning it would never cross my mind. However, if I was trying to cover something up, I would definitely burn the body just like every criminal has done for years and years.

If his burnt body was later buried, I can't for the life of me think of a reason I'd want to exhume it years later and cremate it. It makes absolutely no sense. However, if I was concerned that someone else might want to exhume the body and examine it and I was still trying to hide something, that would definitely be the first thing I would do.

If I absolutely knew I had possession of Hitler's jaw from xrays and dental records and someone asked for a DNA test, that's what I would send to prove it. They sent something else and it failed. Why not follow up with the jaw? They still have it.

It was a war ravaged world with millions dead and homeless. There was every incentive to tell the world he was killed so everyone could move on.

Absolutely none of this proves he escaped. Like I said, the huge favorite is that he died as they said (or close enough for it to be considered accurate).

The problem is the official story and the evidence backing it up kind of sucks. That's why for the longest time people were highly skeptical to begin with. The Russians could say whatever they wanted.

I'm a cynic. I don't accept anything any government says about anything unless the story makes sense and I see enough evidence to back it up. You are more accepting and trusting.

I'm 99.99999% sure Bin Laden is dead, but I'm less sure we have the whole story.

I'm 98% sure Oswald was one of the shooters, but I'm 99.9999% sure we don't have that whole story.

[fast4522]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Let's set aside Hitler for a moment.

There are multiple reports from people suggesting there were hidden compounds in Argentina and elsewhere where ex Nazis lived. Troves of Nazi artifacts have been found in the area. Major arrests of Nazis did occur in Argentina and elsewhere.

History Channel did a series on a lot of this. I didn't see the whole thing from start to finish, but I saw a few episodes. It made me more open to the possibility that a lot more of them escaped than we know about.

http://www.history.com/shows/hunting-hitler


I find it hard to believe that if these guys had these compounds built before the war ended (I assume on Hitler's orders) that they were unprepared to escape when it became clear the war was lost.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/secret-...entine-jungle/

"Germany is believed to have built remote hideouts for their top leaders in some of the most remote locations on Earth prior to the conclusion of World War II in the event of their defeat.

While their findings so far are not definitive proof of these set of structures being one of them, Daniel Schavelzon, leader of the team archaeologists exploring the site, said: "We can find no other explanation as to why anyone would build these structures, at such great effort and expense, in a site which at that time was totally inaccessible, away from the local community, with material which is not typical of the regional architecture."

Yes I agree with all that, I think they had plans to take over the world but they got spanked. Without the dream the support structure for one Antichrist is not there, every man for himself. Sometimes dead is better, I could be totally wrong but that is the way I would bet it if it was a race.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

elysiantraveller,

What you are doing is countering what I am saying with logical alternatives in the same way I countered the official narrative with logical questions given that the official story seems a little shaky.

I can't imagine myself committing suicide and asking for my body to burned. I can think of loads of things I'd want done with my body (buried being the most obvious), but burning it would never cross my mind. However, if I was trying to cover something up, I would definitely burn the body just like every criminal has done for years and years.

If his burnt body was later buried, I can't for the life of me think of a reason I'd want to exhume it years later and cremate it. It makes absolutely no sense. However, if I was concerned that someone else might want to exhume the body and examine it and I was still trying to hide something, that would definitely be the first thing I would do.

If I absolutely knew I had possession of Hitler's jaw from xrays and dental records and someone asked for a DNA test, that's what I would send to prove it. They sent something else and it failed. Why not follow up with the jaw? They still have it.

It was a war ravaged world with millions dead and homeless. There was every incentive to tell the world he was killed so everyone could move on.

Absolutely none of this proves he escaped. Like I said, the huge favorite is that he died as they said (or close enough for it to be considered accurate).

The problem is the official story and the evidence backing it up kind of sucks. That's why for the longest time people were highly skeptical to begin with. The Russians could say whatever they wanted.

I'm a cynic. I don't accept anything any government says about anything unless the story makes sense and I see enough evidence to back it up. You are more accepting and trusting.

I'm 99.99999% sure Bin Laden is dead, but I'm less sure we have the whole story.

I'm 98% sure Oswald was one of the shooters, but I'm 99.9999% sure we don't have that whole story.

We don't really disagree and it was more a friendly discussion. I'm sure we don't know the whole story but you're right I think the evidence as its currently presented is sufficient enough. This is more up to speed with some of the stuff I am reading about right now anyway so the discussion is more enjoyable than Trump on here.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

We don't really disagree and it was more a friendly discussion. I'm sure we don't know the whole story but you're right I think the evidence as its currently presented is sufficient enough.

When in doubt, ask yourself what would Occam do.

Occam's Razor is a problem-solving principle attributed to William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher and theologian. The principle can be interpreted as stating Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

We don't really disagree and it was more a friendly discussion. I'm sure we don't know the whole story but you're right I think the evidence as its currently presented is sufficient enough. This is more up to speed with some of the stuff I am reading about right now anyway so the discussion is more enjoyable than Trump on here.

I think I get a bit defensive when this kind of stuff comes up.

I'm a cynic of government and a little more open to some "conspiracy theories" than most people when the official story is a little shaky. But I'm not a crazy person. I reject a lot of them and I'm willing to change my mind if I missed some facts. I don't want to be lumped in with the crazies even if wrong .

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I think I get a bit defensive when this kind of stuff comes up.

I'm a cynic of government and a little more open to some "conspiracy theories" than most people when the official story is a little shaky. But I'm not a crazy person. I reject a lot of them and I'm willing to change my mind if I missed some facts. I don't want to be lumped in with the crazies even if wrong .

Reading your post, I see you as a healthy skeptic, not a bigoted cynic. I request you redefine the label you assigned to yourself.



I used to belong to the following group.

http://nycskeptics.org/

Even though they are filled with atheists and liberals.

But more important they are interested in the truth, science and denouncing frauds who take advantage of people, pseudoscience and the way the media accepts fraudulent claims without challenging them.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I think I get a bit defensive when this kind of stuff comes up.

I'm a cynic of government and a little more open to some "conspiracy theories" than most people when the official story is a little shaky. But I'm not a crazy person. I reject a lot of them and I'm willing to change my mind if I missed some facts. I don't want to be lumped in with the crazies even if wrong .

No big deal. We're all a little crazy.

If you haven't looked into it the Hess flight and Nazi Peace Overtures are worth reading about. That's a cover-up.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I can't imagine myself committing suicide and asking for my body to burned. I can think of loads of things I'd want done with my body (buried being the most obvious), but burning it would never cross my mind. However, if I was trying to cover something up, I would definitely burn the body just like every criminal has done for years and years.

Hitler apparently made the remark he did not want to end up like Mussolini (hung at a gas station, with his body spit on and beaten), which is supposedly why he ordered his cremation.

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

If his burnt body was later buried, I can't for the life of me think of a reason I'd want to exhume it years later and cremate it. It makes absolutely no sense. However, if I was concerned that someone else might want to exhume the body and examine it and I was still trying to hide something, that would definitely be the first thing I would do.

It's a scary thing trying to get inside Stalin's mind, but one theory is that the "Hitler is alive" meme allowed him some leverage as the cold war heated up. Stalin and Soviet intelligence would need to get rid of any evidence that would contradict that story.

It's difficult to believe Hitler escaped, but of course it's possible. The data supporting that outlook is kind of weak though - there are no accounts of anyone helping him travel out of Berlin (pilots, submarine crews, drivers), and the eyewitness accounts from Argentina are hardly confirmed. Hanna Reitsch, the German pilot who flew the last plane out of Berlin the day before his death, indicated Hitler refused to leave, and she was given a vial of poison by him, and told to commit suicide as he planned to do.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Fringe theories commonplace around here. 4D chess what you called it?

The real conspiracy of WW2 is the Hess Flight and the fact the British government still will not declassify it and the surrounding issue of Nazi Peace Overtures. That one isn't nearly as subjective. They are actively and admittingly not letting that information public.

The Hess story is interesting. At least one of the reasons the Brits want to keep it under wraps is their treatment of Hess (as a political prisoner and not a POW), as well as him being on friendly terms with some of the British royals. At Nuremberg, the Allies had to scramble to come up with charges, as Hess wasn't directly connected to any war crimes - though, of course, he was a Nazi. The Germans wanted to disown him, as he was an embarrassment. Even prior to the flight, he was "odd man out" in many ways in the Nazi hierarchy. He was odder yet when he feigned amnesia after being captured, right up until his trial.

There is definitely the smell of a cover-up of some sort, but with such an apparently ignorant soul in the middle of it, it's not easy to figure it out. There must have something though, as the Allies never released Hess.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

The Hess story is interesting. At least one of the reasons the Brits want to keep it under wraps is their treatment of Hess (as a political prisoner and not a POW), as well as him being on friendly terms with some of the British royals. At Nuremberg, the Allies had to scramble to come up with charges, as Hess wasn't directly connected to any war crimes - though, of course, he was a Nazi. The Germans wanted to disown him, as he was an embarrassment. Even prior to the flight, he was "odd man out" in many ways in the Nazi hierarchy. He was odder yet when he feigned amnesia after being captured, right up until his trial.

There is definitely the smell of a cover-up of some sort, but with such an apparently ignorant soul in the middle of it, it's not easy to figure it out. There must have something though, as the Allies never released Hess.

Agreed.

Something that is interesting about Hitler, especially if you've read his works, is that he was surprisingly transparent when it came to his views and vision. I think its perfectly likely he was willing to offer the UK a pretty generous peace in late 1940 early 1941.

Would have made sense too since his primary goal from his onset was the invasion of the Soviet Union and the creation of the lebensraum. At that point the Battle of Norway was done securing his steel supply, the Greek situation was unfolding requiring resources, the situation in North Africa was dire for the Brits, and honestly the only territories he was really interested in the west were Alsace-Lorraine.

Plus, the might of the Empire hadn't been "worked up" yet. Good time to end things.