Flightline

[paulbenny]

I want to first say I was hoping that this horse would destroy the field and track record.

The fact that the middle mover Epicenter was not part of this is a HUGE factor in the result of the race. The likelihood of Life Is Good staying was slim to none.
The balance of the field was not particularly enticing except for Epicenter so once again this dominant horse faced a field size right around 6 opponents. Look at the others

-a plodder in the Derby Winner
-Pletcher's frequent second or third place runner
-the troubled Baffert's unproven and overrated runner
-Charlie who we knew would fade and was never incredibly fast
-the second place finisher who simply picked up a nice check

None of the aforementioned figured to run much better than some of those in the Pacific Classic.

Then we have the timer issue - which in the opinion of this writer distorted the press conference which never mentioned it because they did not know at the time. They also did not mention Epicenter. Figures are figures and we can debate it but really he raced 6 times in fields totaling 39 including himself.

I think he is clearly overrated comparing him to The Bid and Secretariat. Remember the days of a rabbit entered as part of an entry to soften up the top horse in the field. To me even another few horses clogs the field up and makes more tactics and strategies come to life. This one was simple and not what it was cooked up to be.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by paulbenny

I want to first say I was hoping that this horse would destroy the field and track record.

The fact that the middle mover Epicenter was not part of this is a HUGE factor in the result of the race. The likelihood of Life Is Good staying was slim to none.
The balance of the field was not particularly enticing except for Epicenter so once again this dominant horse faced a field size right around 6 opponents. Look at the others

-a plodder in the Derby Winner
-Pletcher's frequent second or third place runner
-the troubled Baffert's unproven and overrated runner
-Charlie who we knew would fade and was never incredibly fast
-the second place finisher who simply picked up a nice check

None of the aforementioned figured to run much better than some of those in the Pacific Classic.

Then we have the timer issue - which in the opinion of this writer distorted the press conference which never mentioned it because they did not know at the time. They also did not mention Epicenter. Figures are figures and we can debate it but really he raced 6 times in fields totaling 39 including himself.

I think he is clearly overrated comparing him to The Bid and Secretariat. Remember the days of a rabbit entered as part of an entry to soften up the top horse in the field. To me even another few horses clogs the field up and makes more tactics and strategies come to life. This one was simple and not what it was cooked up to be.

Are you really a writer?

[Jeff P]

Hey... Welcome Back!


-jp

.

[thaskalos]

Thank you

[paulbenny]

well, i have become one recently but I am really just a racing fan more than anything and like to challenge the prevailing wisdom of the day and after the press conference and looking at the chart I had to sleep on it before I started to engage on the subject.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by mountainman

I meant that Secretariat was in his prime when Prove Out beat him.

I understood that; my counterpoint was that Prove Out was in the form of his life.

If I told you there was a horse that beat Forego by open lengths in track record time sprinting and 2 weeks later broke the track record routing while beating a subsequent Grade 1 winner, you'd be heralding him as the 'next Flightline'.

Then after winning a 12 furlong marquee race while beating Triple Crown winner, you'd hail him as a 'horse of a lifetime'.

And I have read all the excuses for Secretariat's not infrequent losses.

So you knew that Secretariat was carelessly tossed into a major event going 12 furlongs on a sloppy track barely 2 weeks after a world record performance on the heels of an illness, while putting in two significant work on an entirely different surface, all the while pointing for a totally different race (that he still ran in), and it holds no weight?

You must hold Secretariat to a higher standard than other horses.

Years ago one poster -in fact a sharp observer-literally thought, all things considered, that the horse's defeats should be somehow expunged and Secretariat's record read undefeated. What nonsense.

That has nothing to do with my post. But I suppose Secretariat could have easily been undefeated if he was managed the way top horses are now. But we probably wouldn't have seen him more than 10 times on the track (and likely never after the Belmont).

And with all respect, sir, I'm not at all sure that defeating a great "stallion" would much qualify a thoroughbred to beat Flightline.

Halo was a Grade 1 winner as a racehorse.

[VeryOldMan]

Testify Spalding!

I absolutely love that Flightline went out and dominated. Love it.

But he simply can't be in the conversation - yet - with the likes of Secretariat on the basis of 6 races. Even holding aside Secretariat's other worldly performance in the Belmont. In my view Flightline can't be in the conversation with Seattle Slew and Affirmed because they both went back and beat world class horses after winning the Triple Crown (Slew beat Affirmed; Affirmed beat Spectacular Bid; Spectacular Bid set records as a 4 year old, etc.)

[jocko699]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

Testify Spalding!

I absolutely love that Flightline went out and dominated. Love it.

But he simply can't be in the conversation - yet - with the likes of Secretariat on the basis of 6 races. Even holding aside Secretariat's other worldly performance in the Belmont. In my view Flightline can't be in the conversation with Seattle Slew and Affirmed because they both went back and beat world class horses after winning the Triple Crown (Slew beat Affirmed; Affirmed beat Spectacular Bid; Spectacular Bid set records as a 4 year old, etc.)

BS

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

But the "lack of preparation" argument is just BS from the Secretariat fans who can't accept their hero didn't always win. He was in perfectly good form, and fired before and after the Woodward. Prove Out was just a good horse who ran his best race and was better that day. Secretariat still ran 1 1/2 miles in 2:26 or so, which indicates he ran his race.

I didn't say he lacked preparation. I said he was ill-prepared.

Like spending weeks preparing to defend Amber Heard against Johnny Depp and getting a call a week before the trial that you've been re-assigned and need to be in court tomorrow to defend Jussie Smollet.

[classhandicapper]

Let's set aside figures and accomplishments.

Some of us have been around since the golden age of the 70s.

Can we agree on this one thing?

There have only been a handful of horses from the 70s forward that could chase a horse as fast at LIG at 10F, open up that big a lead over the other horses in the race with some speed, and still beat Grade 1 caliber horses like Taiba and Olympiad by over 8 lengths without being fully extended.

IMO there's no doubt many horses have accomplished way more, but just on sheer talent this horses almost has to be on the very short list.

After that it starts becoming a matter of whose figures you are using, how you think the track was playing, how much you think the pace, ground loss etc.. impacted the performances, how much you weight longevity and versatility and so on. We'll never agree on that to the point where you can say X was clearly better or more talented than Y.

[paulbenny]

That nailed it for me. He is on the short list of really great horses. To debate this beyond that is kind of crazy to me. Speed data, pace data, etc. was not as sophisticated years back and I hesitate to be really specific about that. We act as if the number by a particular person or entity is the gospel.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

That depends on how we view horse racing as a business enterprise. If it's a form of "entertainment"...then the wishes of the audience must be taken into prime consideration. But if it's a "gambling game", then profit must be the primary concern...because that's how the score is kept in the gambling arena. For the gamblers and the owners alike.

It's both.

And BTW, it's hardly the only sport where commerce conflicts with the fan experience.

[JustRalph]

After watching that video in this thread…….

Damn, he looks good……..I’m wondering about Tapit’s legacy in the years to come……a couple more like thus one? Wow!

185k stud fee is what I find online. I guessing a raise is in order

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by paulbenny

That nailed it for me. He is on the short list of really great horses. To debate this beyond that is kind of crazy to me. Speed data, pace data, etc. was not as sophisticated years back and I hesitate to be really specific about that. We act as if the number by a particular person or entity is the gospel.

I don't think he's on the short list of anything.

All he is, is a brilliant racehorse who is a sad commentary on a sport that won't allow intact well bred fast horses to have careers anymore. I wouldn't even vote him into the Hall of Fame (nor would I vote Justify into it).

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

There have only been a handful of horses from the 70s forward that could chase a horse as fast at LIG at 10F, open up that big a lead over the other horses in the race with some speed, and still beat Grade 1 caliber horses like Taiba and Olympiad by over 8 lengths without being fully extended.

Flightline wasn't fully extended? Prat was all over him until a few yards out in a :25+ final quarter.

Olympiad and Taiba are Grade 1 caliber? One was horribly exposed in the Whitney as a second tier horse and the other is marginally better than Cyberknife.

Both were wisely ridden for minor placings in the Classic, both unhurried immediately out the gate (as both had failed miserably showing tactical speed in there previous attempts to make a dent in a major race); Flightline didn't have to open up on them, they were never involved.

It was a match race with a miler that should have taken place in the 8f Metropolitan back in June but instead was 4 months later going 10 furlongs.