YouBet finally YouBust? - Page 3 - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

MikeDee · 08-19-2002, 07:22 PM

I am a long time youbet user (not a stockholder) and I like the product and make all my online wagers with them. I don't have a problem with a basic fee, but don't make it based on a per race watched or per wager made. Just a fixed monthly fee.

AND don't take it out of my wager account!!!! charge my credit card like everyone else. I cut and paste the wager log to a spreadsheet and I have a very easy to maintain record of all my online bets.

GR1@HTR · 08-19-2002, 07:58 PM

I'm with you Mike. I was fine w/ the $5.95 monthly fee they used to charge and would be open to that again.

MikeDee · 08-19-2002, 09:04 PM

I have digital cable here in Ohio and I get the 3 fox digital channels, east, central and west. I have been watching the tvg shows from HOL and DMR on the west channel. Now they could do a lot more showing of races and less talking but it is better then nothing and the price is right (free).

Most of the programming on these digital channels is just filler.
Tonight’s lineup on the east channel is a minor league stock car race from Lonesome Pine Raceway in VA. The central channel has the always exciting Rocky Mtn sport report, followed by "you gotta see this" (which should be titled "don't waste your time watching this"), followed by the Arizona sports report, and the Southern sports report.

I don't know why fox doesn't take the racing show on fox net Pittsburgh and put it on the fox east digital channel. And for that matter why not do a fox east 2hr broadcast from SAR (or NYRA) and a fox central 2hr broadcast from AP. They could do 6 hours of racing across the 3 channels.

It would seem to me on the in the vast wasteland of second rate and minor league sports events on these digital channles they could show a little more horseracing. It has to have a following as big as some the events they are currently showing.

BillW · 08-19-2002, 09:48 PM

Mike,

I'm not familiar with the digital channels that you are talking about but Fox is doing the TVG simulcast on FSNY from SAR. I have TVG so don't pay attention to the schedule or frequency, but Jan Rushton is now a "TVG on track reporter" interacting with the SAR broadcast.

Bill

andicap · 08-19-2002, 10:18 PM

Mike,
This is a little confusing to me. This is my area of expertise.
First of all, who is your cable operator? Is it Time Warner or Adelphia? Or Insight?

The thing you have to remember is horse racing gets incredibly low numbers and they are selling ads. The ratings are miniscule. no one is launching a horse racing channel with the intent of making money on ads.

Sports services are built on attracting broad audiences. You might dislike "You Gotta See This," but your neighbor might like it, and he probably hates racing. Remember even people who go to the track on occasion are not going to watching a daily horse racing show.

Each Fox regional network is programming individually with Fox Sports Net providing national overlay programming (such as "You Gotta See This," or "Best Damn Sports Show Period." Apparently Fox feels it needs to have very assertive and declarative names or people won't tune in.)
The individual networks live and die on live local sports, college football in the fall, pro basketball and hockey in the fall/winter/spring and baseball in the summer.
Most people get only 1 Fox sports network (although people in LA have two which air Dodgers games on one and Angels on another) and New York now has MSG and Fox Sports NY.
You in Ohio can not see out of market pro sports. In other words, if you have a network from the West that ordinarily shows pro baseball from that territory it will be blacked out in your area and the network will provide crappy filler programming for those of you outside of its territory. That's what happens to people with satellite dishes who get all the Fox sports networks, but only see pro sports from their territories. That's to protect the home teams. If you in Ohio could see the Yankee games you might not watch the Indians (or Reds).
Some territories might overlap in some areas and you could get both the Indians and Reds.
Confusing?
You Bet. Bottom line is its not feasible for regional cable nets to provide that much racing programming.

highnote · 08-19-2002, 10:45 PM

This a fascinating and complex topic. I certainly don't know what the solution is. It sounds like there is going to be a shake up of the racing broadcasters -- and even the survivors may not survive.

If YouBet folds, will TVG be able to grab enough from them to stay in business? Seems doubtful based on what I've read here. TVG seems to have funding that dwarfs YouBet. Is that correct? If so, then if they get all YouBet's business it still won't be enough.

Seems like Magna's out of money. So even if YouBet folds won't be enough to bail out Magna.

What if TVG folds. That couldn't hurt YouBet or Magna. It's doubtful that Magna will fold. The autoparts division must be very profitable, so they can stay afloat with money from that division.

Then there are also CDSN and AmericaTab/BRISBET. How do they figure in?

Does Fox make any money from taking bets?

What is the impact of offshore, Vegas and N.Dakota rebates? I assume that at least the Vegas and Dakota money goes back into the pools.

There just isn't enough money to go around - at least I don't think so. There is bound to be a shake up and consolidation. In the meantime, expect less bells and whistles, streamlined services and some fees.

Maybe there needs to be a new business model? Maybe the racing industry was better off before CD and Magna started buying tracks. I like the fact there are lots of places to place a bet. I just hope there will continue to be lots of races at lots of tracks on which to make bets.

Any insights?

BillW · 08-20-2002, 01:06 AM

John,

The same concerns you pose re. broadcast are equally pertinent to the sport in general.. I've been concerned about the economic foundation for quite awhile now. (Slots needed to support purses?) What happens the first time WVA (for instance) says that the states revenue picture is so bad that they are going to legalize standalone casinos? If I were running MNR (as the CEO, not a horseracing fan) the first thing I would do to improve profitability would cut the drain on the till and enhance the profitable side of the business. Unfortunately the whole industry stands on shakey financial ground. Yep, a completely new business model is needed. One that relies on open market competition and not state law to survive.

Bill

MikeDee · 08-20-2002, 08:05 AM

Andi,
My cable provider is WOW or "Wide Open Network" a more fitting name would be "DULL", but they probably didn't want to use that one. In addition to the 3 digital channels I get the local Cleveland FOX sports channel and the national fox channel and umpteen number of ESPN channels (I've lost count). I really get a kick out of the ESPN Classic channel your really gotta be board to watch 10 year old basketball games.

I understand your point about the PRO and probably college agreements and that they can't show these games. And I am sure you are right about the audience being miniscule.

But the stuff they are running during the weekday afternoons on 3 digital channels that are available nationally is truly amazing. I just cannot believe that there is any audience at all for this stuff. First of all they run the same stuff over and over again on all three channels. If by chance you happen to miss a showing of "you gotta see this", not to worry they only show it 3 or 4 times a day on all three of the digital channels. And this is pretty much the case with all of the programs they show on these channels. I think it would be a good punishment for people under house arrest, you could force them to sit in front of the TV and watch the 3 digital fox sports channels. (might be cruel and unusual though).

It seems that what they are doing is taking stuff on their local sports channels and puting it on 1 or all of the 3 national channels. It just seems to me that they really don't have anything to show so why not show some live horseracing? It is after all it is a live sports event and even though the audience is small it is a audience and it has to be bigger then the audience they currently have on these 3 national channels on weekday afternoons.

Just for grins I looked at the menu for today and low and behold it says horseracing from 1 to 4 on the east digital channel. I have never seen this before, no other details...I wonder what this is....stay tuned!

andicap · 08-20-2002, 08:48 AM

John,
Fox only makes money from racing through its part ownership in TVG.

Mike,
Some Fox Sports outlets are running live racing during the day -- in areas where racing is popular, like the West Coast. In the midwest, where it is less so, Fox probably makes more money running those other filler programming.

MikeDee · 08-20-2002, 10:42 AM

Well last night the car race was sponsered by Hooters. Now I can see why quys watch this. The car race just takes up time until the next commerical with the Hooters girls

so.cal.fan · 08-20-2002, 11:37 AM

SJ,
I think you summed it up correct.
You might add, not enough customers to go around either.
That has always been my major doubt with YouBet.
They were counting on a market that "at this time" does just not exist.

socalsportsbook · 08-20-2002, 12:17 PM

For us (horse players) to worry about these people is like "you-know-what in the wind." We can't help them. If we combined all our betting dollars we would not make a dent in any of these companies profitability.

You can not make money with horse racing on TV. Period. Just not enough eyeballs to sell ads to. They need new customers and you can't make new customers. The damn sport just doesn't sell.

This game is controlled by individual states and they will never relinquish their hold on the sport. That--and many other reasons too numerous to mention--is the reason we can't attract new fans.

TVG and You Bet will be gone early next year. They are in a do-or-die situation right now. They (TVG has a large financial interest in You Bet--I think) own the West Coast until December 26th when Magna goes into full swing at Santa Anita. For the West Coast fan TVG does not exist in the winter. If they are doing poorly now what will they do from January through May.

We will still be able to bet and we'll still get a simulcast feed from somewhere but if we want to watch live--we will ahve to pay someone and pay them big time. Can you spell MAGNA.

I hate them but they may be on the right track.

Dave Schwartz · 08-20-2002, 01:18 PM

SoCalSportsBook,

I hate to say it, but you are the pragmatic voice in the wilderness. The pie is just not large enough for them to slice at all.

It is really a shame because many of us would gladly shell out $30-$50 per month for good, selective video via web. And the ironic part is that when only one is standing, we WILL have to shell out more money than ever to keep that company afloat.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

PS: Hope all is well with you.

rrbauer · 08-20-2002, 01:38 PM

Morgan
In June, TVG exercised a warrant to buy 3,884,650 shares of YouBet at $.001 per share. This purchase represents approximately 16.6% of the number of Youbet.com common shares. TVG's investment: $3,884.65!

This was part of the quid pro quo that allows YouBet to take bets and show video from tracks that are TVG "exclusive".

In addition to the first warrant, Youbet.com issued to TVG a second warrant to purchase up to 51% of the number of Youbet.com common shares outstanding on the date the warrant is exercised (including the shares issued upon exercise of the first warrant). The remaining warrant is exercisable at any time on or before May 18, 2004 and if exercised would generate approximately $40 million (subject to adjustment) to Youbet.com.

IMHO the 2nd warrant will never be exercised for two reasons. First, TVG no got $40 mil (and pappa Murdoch is in a bad mood vis-a-vis loans to Gemstar subs). Second, YouBet isn't worth $40 mil for the whole enchilada, never mind 51%.

CDSN announced some time ago that they were going to develop a video production capability around their simulcast product. I'm of the opinion that TVG could end up in the CDSN stable, but have a reduced presence if that happens.

I agree that it looks bleak for TVG come end of December. And, next year they lose Lone Star and (I presume) the Maryland tracks. (Is TVG on one of the Baltimore cable channels? Anyone know?)

socalsportsbook · 08-20-2002, 01:43 PM

Dave, I'm well and thank you for asking. You too seem to be prospering and I'm glad.

I really hate my position on this subject because I love both those operations. I do hate Magna. Are You Bet and TVG perfect? hell no. but they are a whole lot better than what we had. It's really pretty neat right now. Can't make it to the track--no problem.

I would gladly pay a fair, or even too-high a price, to either of these guys just so I don't have to give my money to Stronach. I just don't think it can happen.

Next potential savior--Slot machines. They are on their way and it will be sooner than we think. Horse racing just has to work a deal with the Indians and the state. God they complicate this whole thing.