Tariffs have consequences. Usually unintended

[reckless]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

It's not a left/right thing to know the 5-25% tax has to come from somewhere...

These manufacturers could cut the 5-25 percent tariff you mention to zero quite easily.

Just return to the USA and build their products here. Make in America. Hire in America. And sell in America -- and throughout the world.

'Tariff' problem solved.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by reckless

These manufacturers could cut the 5-25 percent tariff you mention to zero quite easily.

Just return to the USA and build their products here. Make in America. Hire in America. And sell in America -- and throughout the world.

'Tariff' problem solved.

That's funny.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

These manufacturers could cut the 5-25 percent tariff you mention to zero quite easily.

Just return to the USA and build their products here. Make in America. Hire in America. And sell in America -- and throughout the world.

'Tariff' problem solved.

And all those Chinese companies getting hit by the tariffs can easily shut down their factories, fire their Chinese workers, move to America, build new facilities, and start over from scratch.

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

And all those Chinese companies getting hit by the tariffs can easily shut down their factories, fire their Chinese workers, move to America, build new facilities, and start over from scratch.

These Chinese companies could do whatever they wish to do.

And if they do 'move' to the USA and start from 'scratch' they will have to now operate under USA laws.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

These Chinese companies could do whatever they wish to do.

And if they do 'move' to the USA and start from 'scratch' they will have to now operate under USA laws.

And since that ain't gonna happen, we will continue to have tariffs, and American consumers will pay the price.

And we will continue to have trade deficits, which Trump in his economic ignorance sees as "the sky is falling".

[reckless]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

That's funny.

What's so funny?

Considering how clueless, ignorant and incredibly wrong you've been for over 2 1-2 years now -- the joke is actually on you.

You simply do not have the goods nor the basic skills to discuss any serious matter -- nor any other matter you speak.

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

And since that ain't gonna happen, we will continue to have tariffs, and American consumers will pay the price.

And we will continue to have trade deficits, which Trump in his economic ignorance sees as "the sky is falling".

Anyone that says that hundreds of million dollars annual deficits with China is 'good' for the American economy such as you have said should be dismissed out of hand.

Anyone who doesn't believe that the 'free' trade deals written into law by GOP lawmakers for the benefit of Fortune 500 international corporations/benefactors at the expense of 70,000 closed factories and hundreds of thousands of lost blue collar jobs such as you have repeatedly said is also discredited forever.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

Anyone that says that hundreds of million dollars annual deficits with China is 'good' for the American economy such as you have said should be dismissed out of hand.

Proving that like your little orange hero, you also don't understand economics in general and trade in particular.

Trade is one side of our national balance sheet. The other side is capital. When we have a trade deficit, we have a capital surplus. That means that more foreign entities are investing in this country than we are investing in other countries. A capital surplus creates jobs. In our high tech economy, it generally does not create a lot of manufacturing jobs, which is what Trump and his ilk focus on.

For decades, the trade deficit has been a political and journalistic lightning rod, inspiring countless predictions of America's imminent economic collapse. The reality is different. Our imports grow with our economy and population while our exports grow with foreign economies, especially those of industrialized countries. Though widely criticized as an imbalance, the trade deficit and related capital inflow reflect U.S. growth, not weakness--they link the younger, faster-growing U.S. with aging, slower-growing economies abroad.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB116667027467856406

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by reckless

Anyone that says that hundreds of million dollars annual deficits with China is 'good' for the American economy such as you have said should be dismissed out of hand.

Anyone who doesn't believe that the 'free' trade deals written into law by GOP lawmakers for the benefit of Fortune 500 international corporations/benefactors at the expense of 70,000 closed factories and hundreds of thousands of lost blue collar jobs such as you have repeatedly said is also discredited forever.

A huge trade imbalance is only good in the fairy tale land of unlimited wealth exists. It is only an illusion that China took money from the U.S. to build its infrastructure. It is only an illusion that the money from trade imbalances invested in China and China's Belt Road project cannot be invested in the U.S. and the loss of investment is an actual net loss to the U.S. citizen.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by reckless

These manufacturers could cut the 5-25 percent tariff you mention to zero quite easily.

Just return to the USA and build their products here. Make in America. Hire in America. And sell in America -- and throughout the world.

'Tariff' problem solved.

All the idiotic scare tactics and rhetoric aside, this is all VERY simple.

Do you want cheaper goods or better jobs, profits, more equal incomes and greater net worth in the US.

Over the long haul, these trade deals have resulted in good jobs, market share, profits, and net worth moving to foreign countries and cheaper depreciating goods coming to America. The middle class was decimated as a result. Those are the facts.

I can't imagine a worse deal than one where my country gets cheaper electronics, clothes, cars etc... and they get the jobs, profits, and wealth.

A good deal is where both countries have some expertise/specialty and trade with each other in a relatively balanced way so both benefit from the other's specialty. Then jobs and wealth grow equally on both sides and everyone is happy. That's the way it was sold to us 30-40 years even though Ross Perot told everyone there was going to be a giant sucking sound as the good jobs and wealth moved overseas. He was obviously correct.

The question is how do we prevent even more jobs and wealth from shifting overseas and instead bring some of it back to the US very slowly and without disrupting things too much. That won't be so easy. You can't undo 40 years of stupidity in a year or two.

It's going to take different kinds of deals and rules because free trade DOES NOT WORK when countries have different laws, regulations, tax systems, wages and benefits, subsidies etc.. In that environment, one side wins and the other side loses. We are the idiots that lost.

[classhandicapper]

The thing that blows my head about this is that some of the same people that are arguing that free trade works are the same ones that will tell you how dumb California is every time a business leaves there for a place like Texas or elsewhere because taxes are lower, regulations aren't as extreme, labor is cheaper, etc..

They fully understand that jobs and wealth leaving CA is bad for that state and really good for Texas but they can't understand that jobs and wealth leaving the US for China, Mexico, Vietnam or wherever is a lot worse.

At least a move from CA to TX keeps the jobs and wealth inside the US and people can theoretically follow the jobs to the best run states. No one is going to pack up their families and move to Vietnam.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Do you want cheaper goods or better jobs, profits, more equal incomes and greater net worth in the US.

Over the long haul, these trade deals have resulted in good jobs, market share, profits, and net worth moving to foreign countries and cheaper depreciating goods coming to America, but the middle class was decimated.

Good jobs are not going off-shore. This country has been in constant transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy since WW II. That's the real world. Trump doesn't understand that, and he isn't going to change it back with tariffs.

The US did indeed lose about 5.6m manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2010. But according to a study by the Center for Business and Economic Research at Ball State University, 85 per cent of these jobs losses are actually attributable to technological change — largely automation — rather than international trade.

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-...5-95d1533d9a62

One constant throughout economic history is that, as an economy develops, its service sector keeps growing. The graph shows that this is certainly true for the United States. It divides nonfarm payrolls into three categories: government (at all levels), goods-producing industries (mining, manufacturing, construction…), and service-providing industries. Although government is roughly constant, services have far surpassed goods.

Is this bad? Of course not. The standard of living has clearly improved since 1939, when the graph starts. Indeed, goods can now be produced with fewer people—thanks to technological progress and automation…and perhaps also automatization. This transformation allows the economy to direct more of the labor force to enhancing our lives in other ways, such as tourism and entertainment, advanced health care, and anything related to the Internet, all of which are services that were either nonexistent or luxuries in 1939.

https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018...rvice-economy/

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Proving that like your little orange hero, you also don't understand economics in general and trade in particular.

Trade is one side of our national balance sheet. The other side is capital. When we have a trade deficit, we have a capital surplus. That means that more foreign entities are investing in this country than we are investing in other countries. A capital surplus creates jobs. In our high tech economy, it generally does not create a lot of manufacturing jobs, which is what Trump and his ilk focus on.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB116667027467856406

The money flows back to us, but it's essentially a line of credit so we can can keep consuming the stuff they are manufacturing.

I buy a car from the Korean car manufacturer.

I get the car. They get the money.

They take the money and lend it to you so that you can buy a new car.

You get the car. They get the money again.

They lend it paceadvantage.

And on and on it goes, except that it's not just cars.

It's them funding Social Security, Medicare, defense, interest on the bonds they already own so they can turn around and buy more bonds etc.. They are giving us a line of credit and are increasing their wealth so we can continue to live beyond our means.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Good jobs are not going off-shore. This country has been in constant transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy since WW II. That's the real world. Trump doesn't understand that, and he isn't going to change it back with tariffs.

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-...5-95d1533d9a62

https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018...rvice-economy/

It doesn't matter what percentage of jobs went to automation.

We would be better off if those that remain were being done in the US by US workers inside US companies, including those manufacturing the robots and machines that do some of the work.

The trade deficit is telling you how much net wealth is flowing overseas.

Now, even service jobs are moving overseas.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

It doesn't matter what percentage of jobs went to automation.

We would be better off if those that remain were being done in the US by US workers inside US companies, including those manufacturing the robots and machines that do some of the work.

The trade deficit is telling you how much net wealth is flowing overseas.

Now, even service jobs are moving overseas.

That is because countries like China and India are trying to move out of the manufacturing game and into a economy similar to ours.

Note the mass exportation of manufacturing both economies are shipping off to Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia, etc.

People don't want to work on looms forever...

The economy you all sound like what you want was found in places like the Soviet Union where the state insures domestic production via economic controls.

If a guy in Korea can make a better cheaper car why the hell can't I buy it? Because big brother says I need to buy American...?