Horse racing overseas

[thaskalos]

I am starting this thread out of genuine curiosity about the level of popularity that overseas racing has been able to attain within our country. In thread after thread here, the assertion is usualy made by someone that horse racing in other countries is more financially attractive than our domestic product is...and yet the past performances that I've been able to find for the racing overseas are woefully inadequate when compared to what we have available for our races here.

Please understand that I am in no way disparaging the overseas game...nor am I pursuing an argument with those here who have embraced the foreign version of this game. I am genuinely wondering how serious money can be wagered on a racing product that offers such limited handicapping information to the bettor. Yes...I know that the Hong Kong betting pools are huge...but I attribute this to the citizens there having gotten used to their version of the game over time. How does an American handicapper, who has gotten used to the detailed past performances that we have here, make the transition to betting serious money while using the sketchy PPs that are available abroad?

Are there detailed foreign PPs containing fractional times and speed/pace figures...which are available to the betting public at a higher price?

[Robert Fischer]

The readily available foreign pps are inadequate.

A member, shared with me, the 'DRF' pps, for the Dubai World Cup card.

Significant difference from the foreign pps.

I would also like to see Brisnet supporting Stallions and Training Operations abroad, with free Brisnet Ultimate past performances with the 'complete' information included.

I would not be surprised to find more adequate available information for foreign pps, and am hopeful that a member will clue us in.

[Jeff P]

Several years ago (I think it was a few days after Christmas 2012) another horseplayer who I consider a friend came to me with an interesting proposal.

He was very much interested in betting the races at Sha Tin and Happy Valley in Hong Kong.

Even though the Hong Kong Jockey Club website makes a myriad of free data available to everybody (just like Thaskalos has posted in this thread) he was left wanting by certain data points that were missing (such as fractional times, pace figs, and speed figs, etc.)

After searching for a bit, my friend had found a player in Australia who had been compiling basic chart data for Hong Kong. The data was sitting in sql tables, and the player was willing to sell a season's worth of it (if I recall correctly) for about $2k (US.)

My friend had already found four players who were willing to split the cost of the data and was asking if I was interested in becoming the fifth.

He explained that we would be buying raw data "as is." After that we were on our own.

He further explained that "some" programming would be needed to retrieve the data from the sql tables - and that the player we would be buying the data from had said the column names in the tables should be "self explanatory."

He then went on to explain the different things each member could bring to the group:

His strength, he explained, was ticket structure. One player was pretty good at making speed and pace figs. Another was pretty good at trip notes. Another was pretty good with Access and Excel and would be compiling race day reports. My name had come up because they needed a programmer who could not only retrieve the data from the sql tables but who could create some useful ratings from it.

It sounded like an interesting project (we would be forming a team to play Hong Kong.) My share was only a few hundred dollars.

I told him "Count me in."

A few weeks later I began picking apart the sql database. It was slow going. The column names were not as self explanatory as I had been lead to believe.

Deciphering the data was often a case of reading the value for something in the record of a given horse from from a sql table -- and from there going to the Hong Kong Jockey Club website, and scanning the visible data of that same horse while looking for an exact match.

To make a long story short, we didn't get very far. In the end, each of us decided (amicably) not to invest in a second season of data and to go our separate ways.

Imo, a project of this type is certainly doable. But it involves a TON of work. It also requires a serious time commitment from the multiple parties involved.



-jp

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[thaskalos]

It's a shock to me that our local ADW outfits are actually trying to market overseas racing to us without even thinking of offering us some detailed past performances for us to use.

[classhandicapper]

I think there's an opportunity for better information, but it may not be for speed and pace figures. I think Andy Beyer has written about several aborted attempts to make speed figures overseas. It's turf racing. The times are often not indicative of the quality of the horses.

For me to get involved I'd need more organized replays, a better understanding of the class structure, and better running line and chart data. I want to know where horses were at various points of call, what the flow of the race looked like, and how the track was playing that day. But even that would be useless I understood the quality of the races better.

[zerosky]

In the UK as elsewhere horse racing has been seen to be in 'Terminal decline' for the last 60 years. Yet on it goes, the pic below shows on-course attendance for the past twenty years. The link shews a Government sponsored report into the economic importance of the industry to the UK as a whole.

Speaking personally I think the Industry is in 'fair' health

http://tinyurl.com/y4uo5tkp

[trytrytry]

Epsom Derby one of the most important races in horse racing history for obvious reasons is June 1st. lots of good podcasts, preview shows, the experts there really know heir horses, trips, trainers and course feel. the info is there its just different to get. and only so many hours in the day.

[Tom]

Personally, I have no interest in any overseas racing, other than to watch an occasional big race, or special horse perform. I get no thrill from watching a bunch of people standing up in the stirrups, going slow around the park for 3-4 minutes, then whipping and drive for 30-45 seconds. I also have no interest in most American turf racing for the same reason.

Maybe, if they gave you something to work with, like fractional times so we could at least judge come home efforts, I might play some shorter races, but the amount of information available in a useable utility is not good.

But Thask, TimeForm has the only PPs I have ever seen that are even adequate. The figures are good, the the comments informative.

[highnote]

If you are a serious bettor of foreign races you are glad there is not good information available. It is a huge edge to be able to compile your own data.

In HK the data is available for free, but you need to know programming in order to scrape it from their website.

And even if you can scrape it and compile your own data, the market is mature and highly competitive.

On the other hand, it's like any market -- in order to win regularly you have to become an expert. Novices will get eaten alive -- just like in the U.S.

My first year of betting thoroughbreds I actually won on the NYRA circuit. I was too green to know how to lose. I used the Dr Z place/show system. Then learned Dick Mitchell's system. Then I used the Sartin Methodology's TPR ratings. Then I graduated to using Brohammer. I rarely deviated from any of those systems. I won because I had nothing to "unlearn".

I didn't start to lose until I decided I could do better by building my own "winning" system. LOL

[Maximillion]

Originally Posted by highnote

If you are a serious bettor of foreign races you are glad there is not good information available. It is a huge edge to be able to compile your own data.

In HK the data is available for free, but you need to know programming in order to scrape it from their website.

And even if you can scrape it and compile your own data, the market is mature and highly competitive.

On the other hand, it's like any market -- in order to win regularly you have to become an expert. Novices will get eaten alive -- just like in the U.S.

My first year of betting thoroughbreds I actually won on the NYRA circuit. I was too green to know how to lose. I used the Dr Z place/show system. Then learned Dick Mitchell's system. Then I used the Sartin Methodology's TPR ratings. Then I graduated to using Brohammer. I rarely deviated from any of those systems. I won because I had nothing to "unlearn".

I didn't start to lose until I decided I could do better by building my own "winning" system. LOL

Its like the saying says.....a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by Maximillion

Its like the saying says.....a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It's a shock to me that our local ADW outfits are actually trying to market overseas racing to us without even thinking of offering us some detailed past performances for us to use.

Sam Houston was doing this a few years back. decent crowd late at night playing Japan, I asked the simulcast director where to get pp's....... " not sure"

[woodbinepmi]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

Sam Houston was doing this a few years back. decent crowd late at night playing Japan, I asked the simulcast director where to get pp's....... " not sure"

A year after we opened at Sam Houston they started showing Hong Kong in the middle of the night, you couldn't find a seat in the pavilion it was so full.

[iamt]

https://www.scmp.com/sport/racing/ar...nover-plummets

[Tom]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It's a shock to me that our local ADW outfits are actually trying to market overseas racing to us without even thinking of offering us some detailed past performances for us to use.

Shut up and bet.