Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 06-12-2018, 01:02 AM   #166
theiman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post

It's also kind of funny that some people actually BELIEVE Justify needed help outside of his natural speed and talent? He needed BLOCKERS?
Do you think the result of the 2015 Travers, where Frosted pressed AP from the backstretch through the last turn might have been different had there been another stablemate to "block" for AP? Certainly you could have used your same line above and replace the name of Justify with AP.

It's also kind of funny that some people actually BELIEVE American Pharoah needed help outside of his natural speed and talent?

Turn the clock a year ahead from the 2015 Travers to the 2016 Travers and change the top player from AP(A TC Winner) to Arrogate and what does Arrogate get, a blocker, in American Freedom(who at least belonged in the race from his resume and ran great as the blocker)

If people can believe that a rabbit was part of racing in the past, why cant they believe that a reverse rabbit, or a blocker, isnt part of racing now.

There was a fortune to be made, mainly in breeding if Justify wins the TC. Win 2 of 3 TC races and you do pretty good, but certainly not the same $$.
theiman is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 01:10 AM   #167
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
I'm never one who is going to sit here and deny that it happened the way people are claiming. Maybe it was all planned out...I mean, Repole is out there admitting HE had his PLAN and his UNCOUPLED ENTRY...so of course I'm sure Baffert had his plan with his as well. This isn't something new in racing.

But to see people write/say that maybe the results are tainted, as if he NEEDED that help, is pretty funny. That's all I was trying to say.
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 01:18 AM   #168
VigorsTheGrey
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
I'm never one who is going to sit here and deny that it happened the way people are claiming. Maybe it was all planned out...I mean, Repole is out there admitting HE had his PLAN and his UNCOUPLED ENTRY...so of course I'm sure Baffert had his plan with his as well. This isn't something new in racing.

But to see people write/say that maybe the results are tainted, as if he NEEDED that help, is pretty funny. That's all I was trying to say.
It is obvious that he NEEDED Audible NOT TO BE in certain races...besides the Racing Gods are fickle...best to have a back-up, Plan B, where Justify perhaps slightly underperforms and still WINS...
VigorsTheGrey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 01:21 AM   #169
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
It is obvious that he NEEDED Audible NOT TO BE in certain races...
I predict Justify smokes Audible if they ever meet. I don't lose sleep over Audible if I'm connected to Justify in any way.
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 01:29 AM   #170
VigorsTheGrey
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
I predict Justify smokes Audible if they ever meet. I don't lose sleep over Audible if I'm connected to Justify in any way.
Then again, they may go head and head for better than a mile and smoke each other out, unless, unless maybe, Bob “brings his own (reverse) rabbit again...

Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 06-12-2018 at 01:31 AM.
VigorsTheGrey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 02:14 AM   #171
Track Phantom
Registered User
 
Track Phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 2,752
Additional thoughts.....

1. There are zero morals in this game by those that earn their living from it. In golf, the code of ethics is so high that a player is required to penalize themselves if they do something against the rules, even if no one else sees it. The importance placed on integrity, both real and perceived, is bigger than any one individual in the game of golf. Do you feel that horse racing has the same mindset?

2. If ever there was a trainer that could utter "the game has been too good to me, I'm not willing to infringe on the integrity of it" it is Bob Baffert. He has won every major race multiple times, already won the Triple Crown, and has built an empire through his accomplishments in this game. It sickens me that despite all the good fortune he's been awarded, he would still think it necessary to create a bit of "insurance" on Saturday and so blatantly in front of millions of people. Then act like there is "nothing to see here". I say this giving him the benefit of the doubt that he won all of these races fairly and nothing gave him even the slightest edge that would be deemed illegal. If there is "more" to his accomplishments than we know, I would say the statement above increases in intensity by 10000%.

3. The integrity oversight in the game is non-existent. It is, and always has been, the well-educated, dedicated, hard-core racing fans that raise holy hell in these situations for anyone to even take a look at it. For the game to rise out of this "shady sport run by shady people" purgatory it exists in, the people policing the game have to make some very hard decisions. Not only does it seem they are unwilling to make the decisions, they seem equally unwilling to investigate.

4. Those that earn their living through reporting on this game are way too close to it to be objective. For anyone who earns their living in such a situation and can't at least concede the Belmont activity doesn't look good and should be discussed, they aren't serious about what they do. I've seen more talking heads act like the rest of the public is a bunch of tin-foil hat lunatics to even question anything as out of line. They are so over-the-top shills for the sport that it is insulting.

5. People need to stop conflating the need for Justify to be helped (i.e. he would have won anyway) from whether or not there was an attempt to help Justify. It's not as if Justify was some piano dragger that needed the red sea parted in order to get to the finish line. One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. It's simply whether or not Restoring Hope was purposely used in a way that was beneficial to his barnmate and at a determinant to his own chances.

6. There are a lot of lethal, poisonous darts facing this game. You could make an argument that "this or that" could be the "one thing" that brings the game to its knees. This may or may not be true but if true, the "too many horses consolidated into too few barns" has the possibility to be at the head of the pack. There are so many ancillary issues associated with this one phenomena. Not sure what can be done but seeing a stakes race with 9 horses in it trained by Bob Baffert, Chad Brown and Todd Pletcher feels like the beginning of the end.

7. A "rabbit" and a "blocker" are two completely different things in this context. Connections that enter a rabbit in a race with the attempt to soften the early pace is still acting within the boundaries of trying to win the race with said rabbit. It might be on the outer reaches of those boundaries but it isn't that far fetched to see a rabbit forget to stop and keep going despite the early pace. One cannot say that about a blocker who's only roll in the race is to actually create havoc for others.
__________________
www.trackphantom.com
full card analysis
Track Phantom is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 02:36 AM   #172
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Phantom View Post
7. A "rabbit" and a "blocker" are two completely different things in this context. Connections that enter a rabbit in a race with the attempt to soften the early pace is still acting within the boundaries of trying to win the race with said rabbit. It might be on the outer reaches of those boundaries but it isn't that far fetched to see a rabbit forget to stop and keep going despite the early pace. One cannot say that about a blocker who's only roll in the race is to actually create havoc for others.
You're reaching pretty far on this one. In the vast majority of cases a rabbit has zero shot...that's why they're called a rabbit.

They are in the race for one thing and one thing only...and it's NOT to win.
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 02:47 AM   #173
Track Phantom
Registered User
 
Track Phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 2,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
You're reaching pretty far on this one. In the vast majority of cases a rabbit has zero shot...that's why they're called a rabbit.

They are in the race for one thing and one thing only...and it's NOT to win.
Allowing a horse to run fast early is not the same thing as using a horse as a impediment to others.
__________________
www.trackphantom.com
full card analysis
Track Phantom is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 03:00 AM   #174
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Phantom View Post
Allowing a horse to run fast early is not the same thing as using a horse as a impediment to others.
The horse is in there to ensure a fast early pace...either to soften up a heavy favorite (as was Repole's plan for Justify), which would have been an impediment to Justify, or to ensure a super fast early pace to set it up for a closer (and thus an impediment to any speed horses with a good chance of winning).

I think this is a case of word games more than anything else. All these horses are serving as impediments to others in the race.
__________________
@paceadvantage | Support the site and become a today!
PaceAdvantage is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 03:18 AM   #175
Track Phantom
Registered User
 
Track Phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 2,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
The horse is in there to ensure a fast early pace...either to soften up a heavy favorite (as was Repole's plan for Justify), which would have been an impediment to Justify, or to ensure a super fast early pace to set it up for a closer (and thus an impediment to any speed horses with a good chance of winning).

I think this is a case of word games more than anything else. All these horses are serving as impediments to others in the race.
I disagree and think you're being obstinate perpetuate a debate.

There is one front runner in a race and connections have a closer. They choose to enter a speed horse to ensure a fast pace. No one is forcing the other front runner to go the lead. In addition, no matter how cheap the rabbit speed is, he can still go wire to wire and it does happen.

When a horse is used as a blocker, or chaos inducer, they are no longer in the boundaries of winning the race and that, to me, is different.
__________________
www.trackphantom.com
full card analysis
Track Phantom is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 06:40 AM   #176
Fager Fan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Phantom View Post
I disagree and think you're being obstinate perpetuate a debate.

There is one front runner in a race and connections have a closer. They choose to enter a speed horse to ensure a fast pace. No one is forcing the other front runner to go the lead. In addition, no matter how cheap the rabbit speed is, he can still go wire to wire and it does happen.

When a horse is used as a blocker, or chaos inducer, they are no longer in the boundaries of winning the race and that, to me, is different.
I don't like rabbits either and think every horse should be in it to win it, but you're right that there is a big difference between a rabbit and a blocker. One is simply setting a pace, which the competition can ignore. The other is actively blocking or herding, etc. to impede the competition. Big difference.
Fager Fan is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 07:06 AM   #177
rastajenk
Just Deplorable
 
rastajenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lebanon, Ohio
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB@BP View Post
If I understand the onwerships/trainers there would have been a 6 horse entry in the Derby (if same trainers and ownerships had to be coupled)

Vino Rosso Noble Indy Justify Audible Solomini and Magnum Moon

That would have cost CDI a fortune.
And it would have made the race virtually un-bettable. I don't care how much Churchill makes or doesn't make, but I do want the Big Events to continue to be playable races and not become, for all practical purposes, non-betting exhibitions.
rastajenk is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 08:07 AM   #178
Prioress Ply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Phantom View Post

3. The integrity oversight in the game is non-existent. It is, and always has been, the well-educated, dedicated, hard-core racing fans that raise holy hell in these situations for anyone to even take a look at it. For the game to rise out of this "shady sport run by shady people" purgatory it exists in, the people policing the game have to make some very hard decisions. Not only does it seem they are unwilling to make the decisions, they seem equally unwilling to investigate.
People have long celebrated the inherent, centralized deception of the sport and the rogues that populate it. Damon Runyan made an entire career out of it. But the mob used to run Vegas, hat factories used to employ oodles of mercury that destroyed its work force, coca cola used to have codeine in it, the NFL routinely turned a blind eye to brain damage of its players etc. etc. The problem is, in these other areas society changed (many would call it 'progressed') and turned its back on what was once acceptable.

But horse racing hasn't. A guy like Baffert, whom any reasonable person would say has somewhat of a checkered past, is celebrated not only by fans and owners and breeders (and by racetrack management) but by the media itself--the same media that in any other sport would take a journalistic stance that is adversarial when necessary (ie., ESPN has done several shows on football and CTE). This, in my mind, is precisely what will end the sport as we know it.

Last edited by Prioress Ply; 06-12-2018 at 08:10 AM.
Prioress Ply is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 08:42 AM   #179
Lono
Registered User
 
Lono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SouthWest Florida
Posts: 67
I'm with you on this one and think PA may be to close to the business. A rabbit can go wire to wire if left alone, West said it best that he thought it was a quarter horse race. If another horse was on the out side of Restoring hope he would have went over the outside fence. Then to drop in on Bravzo to stop him was disgraceful. Too much money at stake and the Hay Oats and Water Gang just found a new way to get it all. Or should I say (The Integrity of Racing Gang) ha.
Lono is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-12-2018, 08:56 AM   #180
Ruffian1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Phantom View Post
Additional thoughts.....

1. There are zero morals in this game by those that earn their living from it. In golf, the code of ethics is so high that a player is required to penalize themselves if they do something against the rules, even if no one else sees it. The importance placed on integrity, both real and perceived, is bigger than any one individual in the game of golf. Do you feel that horse racing has the same mindset?

2. If ever there was a trainer that could utter "the game has been too good to me, I'm not willing to infringe on the integrity of it" it is Bob Baffert. He has won every major race multiple times, already won the Triple Crown, and has built an empire through his accomplishments in this game. It sickens me that despite all the good fortune he's been awarded, he would still think it necessary to create a bit of "insurance" on Saturday and so blatantly in front of millions of people. Then act like there is "nothing to see here". I say this giving him the benefit of the doubt that he won all of these races fairly and nothing gave him even the slightest edge that would be deemed illegal. If there is "more" to his accomplishments than we know, I would say the statement above increases in intensity by 10000%.

3. The integrity oversight in the game is non-existent. It is, and always has been, the well-educated, dedicated, hard-core racing fans that raise holy hell in these situations for anyone to even take a look at it. For the game to rise out of this "shady sport run by shady people" purgatory it exists in, the people policing the game have to make some very hard decisions. Not only does it seem they are unwilling to make the decisions, they seem equally unwilling to investigate.

4. Those that earn their living through reporting on this game are way too close to it to be objective. For anyone who earns their living in such a situation and can't at least concede the Belmont activity doesn't look good and should be discussed, they aren't serious about what they do. I've seen more talking heads act like the rest of the public is a bunch of tin-foil hat lunatics to even question anything as out of line. They are so over-the-top shills for the sport that it is insulting.

5. People need to stop conflating the need for Justify to be helped (i.e. he would have won anyway) from whether or not there was an attempt to help Justify. It's not as if Justify was some piano dragger that needed the red sea parted in order to get to the finish line. One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. It's simply whether or not Restoring Hope was purposely used in a way that was beneficial to his barnmate and at a determinant to his own chances.

6. There are a lot of lethal, poisonous darts facing this game. You could make an argument that "this or that" could be the "one thing" that brings the game to its knees. This may or may not be true but if true, the "too many horses consolidated into too few barns" has the possibility to be at the head of the pack. There are so many ancillary issues associated with this one phenomena. Not sure what can be done but seeing a stakes race with 9 horses in it trained by Bob Baffert, Chad Brown and Todd Pletcher feels like the beginning of the end.

7. A "rabbit" and a "blocker" are two completely different things in this context. Connections that enter a rabbit in a race with the attempt to soften the early pace is still acting within the boundaries of trying to win the race with said rabbit. It might be on the outer reaches of those boundaries but it isn't that far fetched to see a rabbit forget to stop and keep going despite the early pace. One cannot say that about a blocker who's only roll in the race is to actually create havoc for others.
Please don't lump every person that earns a living in this game or any game for that matter as being of zero morals. We all know that hitting the all or every or by those button for any group of people is not fair.

I know you are upset, as many are including myself, who made a living in this sport for decades. I took pride in playing the game fairly, as many, many others I worked along side of did.

What was done was underhanded, deceiving, and a slap in the face to racing, it's fan base, it's history and everyone that plays the game fairly.

If someone is accused of zero morals, let's say who, not accuse thousands for the underhandedness of one, or a few, or even a bunch.

Thanks for at least considering my request.
Ruffian1 is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.