ACA: ...call it the stupidity of the American voter

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

So yea, I'll accept a few "lies" for what I perceive to be the greater good.

That's what the neocons said about invading Iraq.

The problem is that one person's view of the greater good (or at least how to get there) is often way different from another's. So it's better to tell the truth and let the chips fall.

[NJ Stinks]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

Ridiculous. Why even live in a constitutional republic if you want someone to decide what is for "the greater good" and lie to get it? This place is doomed.

Surely you jest.

[JustRalph]

somebody will file a friend of the court brief that includes this guys comments, right? If this gets in front of the Supreme Court, how do they react?

[NJ Stinks]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That's what the neocons said about invading Iraq.

The problem is that one person's view of the greater good (or at least how to get there) is often way different from another's. So it's better to tell the truth and let the chips fall.

Let's review. A few people indignantly proclaimed that Dems had one standard for lying Repubs and another standard for lying Dems. I simply pointed out that Dems trying to get sick Americans healthcare is a far greater goal than GOP'ers lying so we get can invade Iraq.

Of course, I would prefer no fibs being told by anybody. (shrug)

[johnhannibalsmith]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

Surely you jest.

Whatever that means.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

somebody will file a friend of the court brief that includes this guys comments, right? If this gets in front of the Supreme Court, how do they react?

I don't know if any reference to it is admissible at this point, since the Court is reviewing the decisions in other cases that have already been ruled on in lower courts.

In any case, you can be sure that the justices are aware of all this. And I would assume that the knowledge is not going to change anyone's mind.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

The stupidity I'm most concerned about is insurance companies being allowed to drop people who get sick.

This is a straw man. Insurance companies generally did not allow people with preexisting conditions to be insured as part of the general risk pool, because that would have increased the premiums of all of the healthy people. (Sound familiar?) Pre-ObamaCare, there were high risk pools for people with preexisting conditions, based on the fact that high benefits were not a risk, they were a certainty. These pools received government subsidies to keep premiums lower than they would otherwise be.

The issue was not and is not whether or not people with preexisting conditions could get health care, it was who was going to pay for it. The issue in the mind of liberals was "fairness". It just isn't "fair" to make people who are already sick to pay more for insurance. Which is just as rational as saying that drunk drivers shouldn't pay more for auto insurance. Or that Geico and the rest should cover preexisting damage. Everybody knows that, right?

Under high risk pools, the government pays for the higher risk. Under ObamaCare, the lowest risk people pay for it in the form of higher premiums. The unjustified higher premiums are in fact a tax, but not called that lest the stupid American voters figure out that they just got a tax increase.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

I also find it incredibly stupid that in 2014 people are still arguing about whether or not healthcare is an American luxury or a basic American right.

So yea, I'll accept a few "lies" for what I perceive to be the greater good.

The argument is not about health care, it is about who is going to pay for it. If the people of this country, in an open and honest process, decide to improve health care for the poor, they should also participate in the process regarding the funding.

The ObamaCare process allowed a relatively few Democratic politicians to decide what benefits would be provided to who, and that it would be paid for by artificially high premiums on a relatively small portion of the populace and by taxes on individuals and businesses who could least afford to pay them. But the word "tax" was never mentioned in that process.

That is more than a few lies. ObamaCare is the big lie of the century.

[dartman51]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

Let's review. A few people indignantly proclaimed that Dems had one standard for lying Repubs and another standard for lying Dems. I simply pointed out that Dems trying to get sick Americans healthcare is a far greater goal than GOP'ers lying so we get can invade Iraq.

Of course, I would prefer no fibs being told by anybody. (shrug)

That may be how you feel, but, that's NOT reality. The reality is, when this all started, there were roughly 30 million people without health insurance, according to the Obama administration. When AHC is fully implemented, there will be roughly 30 million people without health insurance, according to the CBO. So, what was really gained. Trying to get sick people insurance, may be a noble cause, but that is NOT what AHC was, or is, about. It's just sad that so many people were duped. Mr. Gruber was spot on, in his assessment.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by dartman51

Mr. Gruber was spot on, in his assessment.

And by blabbing about it, Gruber shows that he is not much smarter than those he feels superior to. Gruber got a consulting fee of $400K from ObamaCare. Who is going to hire him now to do such work?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

Let's review. A few people indignantly proclaimed that Dems had one standard for lying Repubs and another standard for lying Dems. I simply pointed out that Dems trying to get sick Americans healthcare is a far greater goal than GOP'ers lying so we get can invade Iraq.

Of course, I would prefer no fibs being told by anybody. (shrug)

Some people would argue (and did) that invading Iraq was critical to ensure that someone like Saddam, who had previously used WMDs, was removed from power so he could never give support to any terrorists in the region who could attack the US again.

So what's a little white lie like saying "We a sure he still has them now" to accomplish that critical goal?

YOU think that Iraq was not a critical goal (as do I by the way) and some people think Obamacare was not only not a critical goal, but will turn into a long term economic disaster.

The points being, it's never right to lie even if you think the goal is worthy and democrats should pay the price for their lies about Obamacare the way the republicans paid the price for lies about Iraq and "read my lips".

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Some people would argue (and did) that invading Iraq was critical to ensure that someone like Saddam, who had previously used WMDs, was removed from power so he could never give support to any terrorists in the region who could attack the US again.

So what's a little white lie like saying "We a sure he still has them now" to accomplish that critical goal?

I think that Bush acted on inconclusive evidence, that he was personally biased to accept that evidence, and that he greatly over-reacted to that evidence. I don't believe he lied. He screwed up big time, he made some really bad decisions, but he was convinced (or convinced himself) that he was right.

None of which has any bearing on ObamaCare. The people behind it lied. They lied to the democratic Congress and they lied to the American voters. The President lied. Period.

Even if Bush had lied, and if there was proof of it, that does not justify what Obama and Reid and Pelosi and Gruber and the rest did. The scale does not matter. Obama knowingly lied to achieve his personal glory. Period. Bush was a failure. Obama is a failure and a personal disgrace.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

it's never right to lie even if you think the goal is worthy.

Would you lie to your enemy?

Never say never.

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Clocker

The argument is not about health care, it is about who is going to pay for it. If the people of this country, in an open and honest process, decide to improve health care for the poor, they should also participate in the process regarding the funding.

The ObamaCare process allowed a relatively few Democratic politicians to decide what benefits would be provided to who, and that it would be paid for by artificially high premiums on a relatively small portion of the populace and by taxes on individuals and businesses who could least afford to pay them. But the word "tax" was never mentioned in that process.

That is more than a few lies. ObamaCare is the big lie of the century.

As you probably recall, the lying left wing totalitarians even defended Obama Care in front of the U.S. Supreme Court by saying it was not a tax.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by reckless

As you probably recall, the lying left wing totalitarians even defended Obama Care in front of the U.S. Supreme Court by saying it was not a tax.

Yep, a win-win for the administration. Obama told the voters it wasn't a tax and they believed him, and the Supreme Court told Obama it was a tax and that made it OK.