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Old 10-09-2018, 01:29 PM   #1
bobphilo
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Pace (Sectional) Timing in England

Up until now I didn't believe that they did sectional (pace) timing in Europe or the U.K. However I noticed today while watching the racing from Newcastle that that were timing the individual furlongs of the race. That would really introduce an additional precise element to pace handicapping - even here in the U.S..
I wonder if any of the U.K. PPs include these splits?
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:57 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by bobphilo View Post
Up until now I didn't believe that they did sectional (pace) timing in Europe or the U.K. However I noticed today while watching the racing from Newcastle that that were timing the individual furlongs of the race. That would really introduce an additional precise element to pace handicapping - even here in the U.S..
I wonder if any of the U.K. PPs include these splits?
To answer my own question, a Google search shows there are several PP providers in the U.K. which include sectional timing, including the English version of Timeform which give the last 3 furlongs split.

Another provider (At The Races) even color codes each split the same way TFUS does. Sounds like something similar to the pace pattern analysis that cj is studying now.

I wonder if this is a TRAKUS-like system or just timing the race at each furlong?

Last edited by bobphilo; 10-09-2018 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 10-10-2018, 03:31 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by bobphilo View Post
To answer my own question, a Google search shows there are several PP providers in the U.K. which include sectional timing, including the English version of Timeform which give the last 3 furlongs split.

Another provider (At The Races) even color codes each split the same way TFUS does. Sounds like something similar to the pace pattern analysis that cj is studying now.

I wonder if this is a TRAKUS-like system or just timing the race at each furlong?
I see from the TRAKUS site that they are doing sectional timing at tracks all over the world in addition to the U.S. from Argentina to Ukraine to Asia to Australia and, would you believe this, they are timing every horse every 100 meters??? Talk about detail. As a pace handicapper, I find this fascinating.

Last edited by bobphilo; 10-10-2018 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:22 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by bobphilo View Post
I see from the TRAKUS site that they are doing sectional timing at tracks all over the world in addition to the U.S. from Argentina to Ukraine to Asia to Australia and, would you believe this, they are timing every horse every 100 meters??? Talk about detail. As a pace handicapper, I find this fascinating.
If it works. Are they still in Hong Kong? I thought I remember them getting the boot.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:48 PM   #5
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If it works. Are they still in Hong Kong? I thought I remember them getting the boot.
It's still listed on the TRAKUS site but when you go to the Hong Kong Jockey Club site it's not there. The HKJC site is a mess with everything hard to find but I couldn't find anything about TRAKUS so I'm guessing they no longer carry it.

It's incredible that some of these tracks go from no sectional times to times for every hundred meters. I guess one could use the furlong information because sometimes a horse will throw out a killer furlong and break the opposition, but every 100 meters is too much information to process. I can't imagine how to use it.
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Old 10-10-2018, 06:01 PM   #6
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Timeform provide decent estimates for the last 3 furlongs. TPD are more sophisticated but don't cover all tracks. They also have stride data which is cool.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:46 PM   #7
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Having sectional times can only help, but turf paces tend to be relatively slow and the horses full of run late. It's my experience that small variations in pace from average on turf have less of an impact than on dirt. When the conditions get extreme enough to actually impact the result, you can usually see it in the race flow of the race. That's probably why there was never a huge call for sectional times in Europe. They have value, just not as much as on dirt.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:52 PM   #8
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Having sectional times can only help, but turf paces tend to be relatively slow and the horses full of run late. It's my experience that small variations in pace from average on turf have less of an impact than on dirt. When the conditions get extreme enough to actually impact the result, you can usually see it in the race flow of the race. That's probably why there was never a huge call for sectional times in Europe. They have value, just not as much as on dirt.
They may be even more valuable on turf. Final times and speed figures vary more on turf than on dirt, mainly due to variations in pace. That's why sectional times are crucial in turf races to explain and adjust for the pace and it's effect on final times.
Rightly or wrongly, Europeans value finishing ability more than having early speed, which is why they are less interested in pace. Even when the English Timeform does sectional timing, its only for the last 3 furlongs. That doesn't make the early pace less important, just a reflection of what they value and how they run their races. The services that do more complete sectional timing and pace analysis are beginning to show their added value in the U.K. They are also important in showing the importance of pace patterns on all surfaces, which is only recently being studied, and someday even quantified, as in cj's study. One needs all the sectional splits to do this. While I first discovered the value of using pace patterns in dirt races, I find this analysis just as useful in turf races.

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Old 10-11-2018, 12:06 AM   #9
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I have been using sectional data in the UK for a while now and most of it is done directly from video replays - particularly the last 3f or 2f depending on distance and markers etc - officially there are two outlets who provide data - Timeform who use the video method and TPD who cover 4 AW tracks and 2 turf tracks. There are plans in place hopefully for Ascot and York next turf season. At the forefront of the sectional scene here has been Simon Rowlands , an ex Timeform employee who has developed his own metric - Finishing Speed % and also a method to upgrade a performance rating based on the efficiency of the race time / sectionals. He has also written a free to download book which can be downloaded here https://en.calameo.com/read/00036246...d=mSo7SacuVBgK

He writes a weekly blog on ATR , as he was involved in the input of the TPD data that is used to create the metrics on that site and can be found here http://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sect...tlight/archive
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:14 AM   #10
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The ATR data is provided by a company called Total Performance Data who i'm sure cover Golden Gate Fields in the US and are also trialling at other tracks just now - website here http://www.totalperformancedata.com/
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:24 AM   #11
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Even when the English Timeform .
BTW Bobphilo - Timeform also cover the tracks in Scotland , Wales and Ireland and has been listed as a UK company since the days of Phil Bull & Dick Whitford
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:38 AM   #12
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Rightly or wrongly, Europeans value finishing ability more than having early speed, which is why they are less interested in pace.
Yet even here , my studies have shown that there is great value and a large bias towards front running - looked at on a % of runner basis and by impact values - front runners enjoy a massive edge and if can be predicted consistently , is where the money is. This covers data from all UK Flat turf tracks (34) from 2009 - 2017 and is modeled against bookmakers final Starting Price (SP) which have the tightest margins (avg 14% overround / take) profits would be even higher at Xchange prices.

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Old 10-11-2018, 01:02 AM   #13
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the English version of Timeform
Phil Bull be spinning in his grave lol - his original company founded in 1948 is now a "version" to TimeformUS
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:50 AM   #14
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Phil Bull be spinning in his grave lol - his original company founded in 1948 is now a "version" to TimeformUS
Yes I know. The original Timeform is as old as I am.

Perhaps I should have said predecessor instead of version.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:59 AM   #15
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I have been using sectional data in the UK for a while now and most of it is done directly from video replays - particularly the last 3f or 2f depending on distance and markers etc - officially there are two outlets who provide data - Timeform who use the video method and TPD who cover 4 AW tracks and 2 turf tracks. There are plans in place hopefully for Ascot and York next turf season. At the forefront of the sectional scene here has been Simon Rowlands , an ex Timeform employee who has developed his own metric - Finishing Speed % and also a method to upgrade a performance rating based on the efficiency of the race time / sectionals. He has also written a free to download book which can be downloaded here https://en.calameo.com/read/00036246...d=mSo7SacuVBgK

He writes a weekly blog on ATR , as he was involved in the input of the TPD data that is used to create the metrics on that site and can be found here http://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sect...tlight/archive
Rowland's method to upgrade a performance rating based on the efficiency of the race time/sectionals sounds a lot like my theory of adjusting final speed figure by unevenness of pace patterns. Can't wait to read his book.
Thanks for the info.
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