Religion II

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

We disagree on that and yes I am a fan of Plato, not so much of Aristotle.
I believe, rightly or wrongly, the vast majority of citizens on the planet, before, during, and after the time of Christ were illiterate.
By 1820 only 12% of the people of the world could read.
That percentage would be far far lower a thousand years earlier and lower yet 1800 years earlier, particularly in the Middle-East.
I can't see how the written word was "quite popular" throughout most of history. If it was, I'm wrong.

Greyfox...let's pretend that you are absolutely right...and that only a tiny percentage of the people in Galilee, Judea and Samaria could read and write. Jesus presented himself as the legitimate "Son of God"...and he performed many miracles to back up that claim...and he did that for YEARS! And then, to top it all off...he casually walked out of his grave, and he presented his resurrected self to "HUNDREDS of people"...(according to Paul, and Boxcar). And...not a single "educated" person came forth to write about all this during this miracle-worker's LIFETIME? Only 50+ years hence did the stories about him start to get written? How can this ever be explained in a reasonable manner?

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And...not a single "educated" person came forth to write about all this during this miracle-worker's LIFETIME? Only 50+ years hence did the stories about him start to get written? How can this ever be explained in a reasonable manner?

Your guess is as good as mine.
Probably the only few scribes around in that region were in Jewish Priesthoods and did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Hence they had no interest in writing anything down about him.
Otherwise, if anyone could write, they may not have had access to pen, ink, papyrus, clay tablets etc. to write on.
We take a lot of things for granted today that weren't available to most previous generations.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why would there be? Jesus appeared to HIS people, not to the world at large. Jesus made his entrance into this world in Israel, remember?

"Why'd you choose such a backward time and such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation.
Israel in 4 B.C. had no mass communication.
Don't you get me wrong. Don't you get me wrong.
I only want to know. I only want to know.
Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ, superstar. Do you think you're who they say you are?
Jesus Christ, superstar. Do you think you're who they say you are?"

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

... the definition that contains the words "clerical or sacred", reads thus:

lay or secular RATHER than clerical or sacred (emphasis mine).

And "spiritual" is not in my M-W definition at all.

So your M-W differs from my M-W. Why is that?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Come on, Greyfox...you honestly couldn't spot my attempt at humor by my use of "headlines" in that context? You seriously thought that I actually believed in the existence of NEWSPAPERS at that time?

The topic of Jesus's resurrection has been a tired argument in this thread...as is Boxcar's hypothesis that the "resurrection" is the only way by which Christianity could be widespread as a religion. The truth is that this supposed resurrection does not exist at all as a historical event...even though such a stunning development could NEVER have been expected to be ignored by the annals of history.

"The truth is..."!! Your "truth", you mean?

The truth is that a crucified Jewish Messiah to the typical Jewish mind would have been repugnant and revolting since the Jews' Law taught that anyone who hangs on a "tree" is cursed.

When Pontius Pilate wrote an inscription to put above Jesus' cross that read Jesus the Nazarene, The King of the Jews, the chief priests protested, telling Pilate to not write that but rather to write that Jesus claimed to be the king of the Jews. But Pilate refused to change what he had written because his intent to mock and insult the Jewish nation (Jn 19:19-22). Pilate wanted to bring reproach to the Jewish nation because he knew that their leaders condemned an innocent man to death.

But everyone knew where this Jesus was buried. The burial was not some clandestine, covert operation. The Jewish leaders could have had the last laugh at the expense of Rome and Jesus' disciples by simply producing the body. So, again, why didn't they?

What is tiresome and wearisome and boring is that you skeptics can't answer this simple question. The Jews could have saved themselves an awful lot of heartaches, troubles and tribulations by killing the Jesus movement in the bud by producing the body of Jesus. If they had produced the body, Jesus would have been another ho-hum, run-of-the-mill itinerant preacher, fallen by the wayside.

And, as far as the "popularity" of Christianity is concerned...it is equally truthful that Rome, after it accepted Christianity as its official religion...resorted to terrifying acts of extreme brutality in its attempt to spread the "Christian beliefs" among the 'unbelievers'.

Thanks for the non sequitur. This occurred hundreds of years after Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. In fact, Christianity should have died long before this if Christ had not risen from the dead.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And...not a single "educated" person came forth to write about all this during this miracle-worker's LIFETIME? Only 50+ years hence did the stories about him start to get written?

There is evidence that Christianity existed as early as 500 B.C.E.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

"The truth is..."!! Your "truth", you mean?

The truth is that a crucified Jewish Messiah to the typical Jewish mind would have been repugnant and revolting since the Jews' Law taught that anyone who hangs on a "tree" is cursed.

When Pontius Pilate wrote an inscription to put above Jesus' cross that read Jesus the Nazarene, The King of the Jews, the chief priests protested, telling Pilate to not write that but rather to write that Jesus claimed to be the king of the Jews. But Pilate refused to change what he had written because his intent to mock and insult the Jewish nation (Jn 19:19-22). Pilate wanted to bring reproach to the Jewish nation because he knew that their leaders condemned an innocent man to death.

But everyone knew where this Jesus was buried. The burial was not some clandestine, covert operation. The Jewish leaders could have had the last laugh at the expense of Rome and Jesus' disciples by simply producing the body. So, again, why didn't they?

What is tiresome and wearisome and boring is that you skeptics can't answer this simple question. The Jews could have saved themselves an awful lot of heartaches, troubles and tribulations by killing the Jesus movement in the bud by producing the body of Jesus. If they had produced the body, Jesus would have been another ho-hum, run-of-the-mill itinerant preacher, fallen by the wayside.



Thanks for the non sequitur. This occurred hundreds of years after Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. In fact, Christianity should have died long before this if Christ had not risen from the dead.

Yes...the Romans were so impressed by the "resurrected Jesus" that they quickly abandoned their barbaric ways once they officially adopted the Christian religion as their own.

Christianity's widespread popularity was an orchestrated business enterprise run by the Romans, Boxcar...and the Roman version of it bore little resemblance to what Jesus originally taught...and what the early Christians originally believed. The problem with most of you Christians is that you don't bother with those pesky historical facts which contradict your interpretation of all matters religious. You can shrug your shoulders when you are told that the biblical texts were heavily edited by the Romans, and you can ignore the extreme brutality of the newly-converted Roman-Christians...but your apathy doesn't wash those troublesome facts away.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Actor

There is evidence that Christianity existed as early as 500 B.C.E.

What did they call themselves back then?

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

I believe, rightly or wrongly, the vast majority of citizens on the planet, before, during, and after the time of Christ were illiterate.

Maybe 3% could read. Probably less than 1% could write.

Ever have a conversation with an illiterate person? It’s not surprising that they would be susceptible to the wild stories put forth in the Bible.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

So your M-W differs from my M-W. Why is that?

You tell me.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...the Romans were so impressed by the "resurrected Jesus" that they quickly abandoned their barbaric ways once they officially adopted the Christian religion as their own.

Christianity's widespread popularity was an orchestrated business enterprise run by the Romans, Boxcar...and the Roman version of it bore little resemblance to what Jesus originally taught...and what the early Christians originally believed. The problem with most of you Christians is that you don't bother with those pesky historical facts which contradict your interpretation of all matters religious. You can shrug your shoulders when you are told that the biblical texts were heavily edited by the Romans, and you can ignore the extreme brutality of the newly-converted Roman-Christians...but your apathy doesn't wash those troublesome facts away.

You still haven't answered the question. I don't give a flip about what happened centuries after Christ. THAT is not the issue. The issue is how in the world did the Jesus sect movement get legs after Christ's death since the apostles and disciples preached a resurrected Christ? Why didn't the Jews shut down a religious sect that would have been revolting to them by simply producing the body of Christ?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Greyfox...let's pretend that you are absolutely right...and that only a tiny percentage of the people in Galilee, Judea and Samaria could read and write. Jesus presented himself as the legitimate "Son of God"...and he performed many miracles to back up that claim...and he did that for YEARS! And then, to top it all off...he casually walked out of his grave, and he presented his resurrected self to "HUNDREDS of people"...(according to Paul, and Boxcar). And...not a single "educated" person came forth to write about all this during this miracle-worker's LIFETIME? Only 50+ years hence did the stories about him start to get written? How can this ever be explained in a reasonable manner?

Jesus predicted this very scenario to his apostles after he would leave them. See Jn. 14:26. And the Holy Spirit was not given to the Church until Pentecost -- 10 days after Christ's ascension.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

"Why'd you choose such a backward time and such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation.
Israel in 4 B.C. had no mass communication.
Don't you get me wrong. Don't you get me wrong.
I only want to know. I only want to know.
Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, who are you? What have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ, superstar. Do you think you're who they say you are?
Jesus Christ, superstar. Do you think you're who they say you are?"

Why, why, why, why....

Isa 55:8-9
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Neither are your ways My ways," declares the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
NASB

Why would you think God must think and act like a man?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You still haven't answered the question. I don't give a flip about what happened centuries after Christ. THAT is not the issue. The issue is how in the world did the Jesus sect movement get legs after Christ's death since the apostles and disciples preached a resurrected Christ? Why didn't the Jews shut down a religious sect that would have been revolting to them by simply producing the body of Christ?

When I ask you similar questions, you accuse me of engaging in "arguments from silence"...and you ignore me. And now you are playing these "argument from silence" games YOURSELF?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When I ask you similar questions, you accuse me of engaging in "arguments from silence"...and you ignore me. And now you are playing these "argument from silence" games YOURSELF?

No, I'm not! I'm making an historical inquiry. We know that Christianity spread very rapidly after Christ's resurrection. I even did a series of posts on this very subject -- how the Jesus movement, according to scripture, moved out into the world precisely as Christ commanded -- starting from Jerusalem, then going throughout Judea, then to Samaria, then Asia Minor and then to the utter parts of the earth. My question is a very reasonable one. I want to know why the Jewish religious establishment failed to kill the movement in its tracks, which they could have done by producing the body of Christ.

I say...the fact that they didn't is because they were not able to. And they weren't able because Jesus truly did rise from his tomb, as the scriptures tell us.