Trump signs tariffs

[Clocker]

But mom, he started it.

President Trump announced today that he's retaliating for China's retaliation against last week's tariff announcement.

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politic...r-new-tariffs/

[Clocker]

Goldman Sachs analysis of the Trump trade wars.

Goldman makes another far more relevant point, at least as far as traders are concerned, namely that to maintain leverage in negotiations, the Administration must convince trading partners that the US intends to impose trade restrictions. However, and this is the key part, "it is unlikely that the White House can convince trading partners that tariff threats are credible without also convincing financial markets."

In other words, for Trump's trade negotiations to be successful, and for US trade partners to take a flip-flopping Trump credibly, the market has to crash. Incidentally, this makes sense when one considers that when Trump officially launched the trade war with China in early April, the president explicitly warned that stocks "may take a hit", and told investors to prepare for "pain" in the market, a statement which promptly became a self-fulfilling prophecy and sent the market sharply lower.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...rket-has-crash

[incoming]

Clocker,
Facts are a dime a dozen and I don't like playing this game, but here goes. Our middle class has disappeared, factories and whole industries left the country and took their jobs and money with them. Thanks to Trumps policies and tax cuts they are returning to the country and they are sharing the wealth.

I am not going to argue textbook theories with you using decades of old back data. Just look around you....what do you see... the improvements could be endless. Maybe, you are one of the people that believe this is a continuation of Obama's economic plan....I don't. I look at results not process. I say, give Trump a set of loose reins, he has is own spurs, then just hold on. I'm up for a new adventure....how about you. After his job is completed maybe as a country we can afford another Marshall Plan or we can set a good example for other countries to follow. Oh yeah, build that wall....so we can hand pick our disciples to lead the world.....out.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by incoming

I am not going to argue textbook theories with you using decades of old back data. Just look around you....what do you see... the improvements could be endless.

This isn't theory, this is facts. Bush steel tariffs hurt people. Protective tariffs made the Great Depression much worse than it would have been. Trump tariffs have already raised prices.

What back data? Everything I posted was bad news during the Trump administration. None of which you can refute.

Tax cuts? The average American family will receive a cut of about $1100 the first year. That number declines over time and eventually becomes a tax increase several years down the road. Compare that to a cost of living increase of 15%.

I say, give Trump a set of loose reins, he has is own spurs, then just hold on. I'm up for a new adventure....how about you.

I'm up for a new adventure, but I have seen this movie before. Facts are facts, no matter what anyone may say about them.

Trumps tariffs will increase consumer prices in this country. Not even Trump's "seasoned team" of advisers deny that. They, like you, are betting that other Trump policy, which we have not seen yet, will off-set those increases. The tax cuts aren't doing it. What's next?

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Are tariffs are tax on consumers? Yes or no?

Do tariffs limit your choices as a consumer? Yes or no?

Irrelevant questions when considering the goal.

But to answer your questions, they are NO and NO. Consumers are neither barred from buying a tariffed product, nor are they forced to pay the price on a tariffed product.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by tucker6

Irrelevant questions when considering the goal.

But to answer your questions, they are NO and NO. Consumers are neither barred from buying a tariffed product, nor are they forced to pay the price on a tariffed product.

Nice attempt at a dodge. Is completely free trade the goal? Trump said that but we have tons and tons of posts from you folks saying that would be a bad thing.

Trump walked out of talks over Steel when Europe refused to agree to quotas...

That's a barring.

The spinning around here is tremendous lately? Whats the new flavor? #MAGA Mango?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by tucker6

Irrelevant questions when considering the goal.

But to answer your questions, they are NO and NO. Consumers are neither barred from buying a tariffed product, nor are they forced to pay the price on a tariffed product.

The point is that tariffs on imports increase the prices on those imported products. That allows US competitors to raise their prices, which were being held down by competition from those imports.

To further beat a dead horse, the immediate impact of Trump's steel tariffs was a price increase by US steel producers. So users can pay the now higher price on imported tariffed steel, or they can pay the now higher price on US, no longer subject to the same foreign competition as before. In either case, prices went up solely as a result of tariffs.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by Clocker

The point is that tariffs on imports increase the prices on those imported products. That allows US competitors to raise their prices, which were being held down by competition from those imports.

To further beat a dead horse, the immediate impact of Trump's steel tariffs was a price increase by US steel producers. So users can pay the now higher price on imported tariffed steel, or they can pay the now higher price on US, no longer subject to the same foreign competition as before. In either case, prices went up solely as a result of tariffs.

No they didn't.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

No they didn't.

My point was that the tariffs allowed domestic prices increases, not that they caused them. Knowing the inevitable, Trump gave the domestic steel industry permission to raise prices when he imposed the tariffs.

That of course was totally independent of Trump's meeting with steel company execs just before announcing the tariffs.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

Nice attempt at a dodge. Is completely free trade the goal? Trump said that but we have tons and tons of posts from you folks saying that would be a bad thing.

Trump walked out of talks over Steel when Europe refused to agree to quotas...

That's a barring.

The spinning around here is tremendous lately? Whats the new flavor? #MAGA Mango?

You asked two questions and don't like the answers obviously. Hard to dodge the questions when I specifically answered them with one word responses (as requested), and in CAPS no less.

The fact remains that consumers do NOT have to purchase higher priced goods. For example, if lumber tariffs increase the cost of a house by $6,000, the consumer can choose instead to defer building until next year or purchase a pre-existing home. In both of those examples, choice still exists for the consumer, and in both of those examples, the importing country has a negative impact on its exports without inflation hitting the USA consumer.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by tucker6

You asked two questions and don't like the answers obviously. Hard to dodge the questions when I specifically answered them with one word responses (as requested), and in CAPS no less.

The fact remains that consumers do NOT have to purchase higher priced goods. For example, if lumber tariffs increase the cost of a house by $6,000, the consumer can choose instead to defer building until next year or purchase a pre-existing home. In both of those examples, choice still exists for the consumer, and in both of those examples, the importing country has a negative impact on its exports without inflation hitting the USA consumer.

So...

If a consumer elects to build a new house... he will be paying a tax.

So... yes?

Price isn't a determining factor in purchase trends...?

So... yes?... again...

Do they use Stevia or Sugar?

Here is a perfect example of how tariffs can actually hurt economic growth in unrelated sectors. Raising prices on other items in the economy.

North Dakota’s Oil Industry Growth Has Fueled A Housing Shortage

Guess those folks will be paying a tax.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by tucker6

The fact remains that consumers do NOT have to purchase higher priced goods. For example, if lumber tariffs increase the cost of a house by $6,000, the consumer can choose instead to defer building until next year or purchase a pre-existing home. In both of those examples, choice still exists for the consumer,

The consumer had three choices in your scenario. Now he has two. I call that a big restraint imposed by the government on free choice. To what benefit, other than an increase in federal revenue?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by tucker6

You asked two questions and don't like the answers obviously. Hard to dodge the questions when I specifically answered them with one word responses (as requested), and in CAPS no less.

The fact remains that consumers do NOT have to purchase higher priced goods. For example, if lumber tariffs increase the cost of a house by $6,000, the consumer can choose instead to defer building until next year or purchase a pre-existing home. In both of those examples, choice still exists for the consumer, and in both of those examples, the importing country has a negative impact on its exports without inflation hitting the USA consumer.

Also why are you ignoring the issue of quotas?

You quote dairy and we have a quota on that.

You ignore the fact that negotiations with the EU broke down over quotas. If one is in place you are, in fact, barring people from purchasing something.

[mrhorseplayer]

do you put America first?

[woodtoo]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

do you put America first?

I do and I'm Canadian!! Tariffs. I ain't afraid of no stinking tariffs.