Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

No we are not standing still as time like a collection of water particles like a river flows over, or thru us.

Everything in all of us, each cell, brain, blood and microbe, every breath, every hanging toenail exists in time with us. And all of it moves from the past to the present to the future.

As I said, try unbreaking an egg, or unbreaking a window

https://youtu.be/jyC-46r01tg

Of course, we're "standing still". And what do hanging toenails have to do with the flow of time? You are totally shot.

Look at time like a merry-go-round ride. We're moving but only in the sense that the machine we're on is moving us! Likewise, this spinning planet we're on, in addition to other cosmic bodies, are moving us through Time. Time is continually coming toward us, through us and past us. Continually. And it come come through us, since Time itself is not material!

You need to explain to us how we can be using Time twice, since you have all this used, spent time coming at us from the Past, and we live it AGAIN in the Present, and then all this recycled, used time passes into the Future which contains all new, unused Time we never get to experience since all this, new unused, unlived time is constantly streaming away from us. How is this logically possible?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

......You need to explain to us how we can be using Time twice, since you have all this used, spent time coming at us from the Past, and we live it AGAIN in the Present, and then all this recycled, used time passes into the Future which contains all new, unused Time we never get to experience since all this, new unused, unlived time is constantly streaming away from us. How is this logically possible?

Time can not be used twice. It is not a commodity burned in your car or the junk food you ate for dinner.
Even this 11th century Persian poet and astronomer beats your la la land absurdities. Key is we are moving along in the dimension of time. The entire universe, albeit at different rates, moves from the past to the present and onto the future.

From the Rubaiyat:

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

— Omar Khayyám (translation by Edward Fitzgerald).

The evidence abounds all around us. If the future preceded the present, why couldn't you not deposit $1000 in a savings account when you are 60 or 80 and withdraw a small fortune at age 21?

Oh wait, you would have had to preach and convince the entire financial world, bankers, investment brokers of your reverse time theories. I suspect you would have had a tougher time preaching them than the few literal minded straglers on this horses racing board.

What do you think?

[hcap]

Obviously what you are saying can't be correct. The future does not arrive before the present or past. So you owe us an explanation based on common agreed upon definitions.

In your own boxcarian terms, define:

1-passt
2-present
3-future

Here let me start off with future, or the future.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/future

1usually the future. A period of time following the moment of speaking or writing; time regarded as still to come.
‘we plan on getting married in the near future’
‘work on the building will be shelved for the foreseeable future’

1.1 Events that will or are likely to happen in time to come.
‘nobody can predict the future’


past

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/past

1usually the pastThe time before the moment of speaking or writing.
‘she found it hard to make ends meet in the past’
‘the war-damaged church is preserved as a reminder of the past’

1.1 The history of a person or place.
‘the monuments act as guidelines through the country's colourful past’

1.2informal A part of a person's history that is considered to be shameful.
‘the heroine was a lady with a past’

[hcap]

You must find definitions that are in any what close to what you are saying.

Eh, there are none unless you compose your own.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Time can not be used twice. It is not a commodity burned in your car or the junk food you ate for dinner.
Even this 11th century Persian poet and astronomer beats your la la land absurdities. Key is we are moving along in the dimension of time. The entire universe, albeit at different rates, moves from the past to the present and onto the future.

Circular reasoning. You need to prove your premise.

Furthermore, you now say that Time cannot be used twice, yet in your absurd "arrow of time" theory, you have Time doing exactly that! You have used time from the Past coming to meet us in the Present which is the only component of Time in which time can be consumed. In other words, your theory is self-defeating because it contradicts itself, as you just did.

The evidence abounds all around us. If the future preceded the present, why couldn't you not deposit $1000 in a savings account when you are 60 or 80 and withdraw a small fortune at age 21?

What an utterly stupid question! WHY? Because the Future passes through the Present to become the Present for one fleeting moment and then proceeds into the Past, that's why!

[Actor]

YouTube

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Obviously what you are saying can't be correct. The future does not arrive before the present or past. So you owe us an explanation based on common agreed upon definitions.

In your own boxcarian terms, define:

1-passt
2-present
3-future

Here let me start off with future, or the future.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/future

1usually the future. A period of time following the moment of speaking or writing; time regarded as still to come.
‘we plan on getting married in the near future’
‘work on the building will be shelved for the foreseeable future’

1.1 Events that will or are likely to happen in time to come.
‘nobody can predict the future’


past

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/past

1usually the pastThe time before the moment of speaking or writing.
‘she found it hard to make ends meet in the past’
‘the war-damaged church is preserved as a reminder of the past’

1.1 The history of a person or place.
‘the monuments act as guidelines through the country's colourful past’

1.2informal A part of a person's history that is considered to be shameful.
‘the heroine was a lady with a past’

You're truly stuck on stupid! The above definitions speak to the chronological flow of time, not the logical flow. Till this day, you cannot understand the difference.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You're truly stuck on stupid! The above definitions speak to the chronological flow of time, not the logical flow. Till this day, you cannot understand the difference.

Your "logical" flow is eh, illogical.

You seem to divorce events from time. If your future come before today, you are therefore claiming the events of your "future" must precede the events of today and the past.

That's why i gave you a get rich scheme, of depositing $1000 when you are 80, which according to you ARRIVES around when you are born, accruing interest to use freely when according to you are closer to death say at 21.

This why I gave you an opportunity to re-define the past, present and future
in your boxcarian way, separate from events, cause, and effect.

Oh yeah define before, now and after

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Your "logical" flow is eh, illogical.

You seem to divorce events from time. If your future come before today, you are therefore claiming the events of your "future" must precede the events of today and the past.

That's why i gave you a get rich scheme, of depositing $1000 when you are 80, which according to you ARRIVES around when you are born, accruing interest to use freely when according to you are closer to death say at 21.

This why I gave you an opportunity to re-define the past, present and future
in your boxcarian way, separate from events, cause, and effect.

Oh yeah define before, now and after

There are no events of the future until the Future becomes the Present. Get this through your incredibly dense, thick skull: Time is consumed (used) only in the Present, which means events can only occur in the Present. This is precisely why no one knows what the Future may bring...that is to say, bring to the Present!

[boxcar]

Here, let me help you out, Hcap, with a concrete example of when "future events" actually happen.

When your mother was pregnant, did she look back to the Past to see when she would give birth to you? Or did she look forward to the Future -- to a date ahead when she would come to full term and give birth to you? She knew she was going to conceive you, correct? Yet, that never happened until the anticipated day finally arrived to become the Present. The event of your birth didn't take place in the Future, but eventually in the Present.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Here, let me help you out, Hcap, with a concrete example of when "future events" actually happen.

When your mother was pregnant, did she look back to the Past to see when she would give birth to you? Or did she look forward to the Future -- to a date ahead when she would come to full term and give birth to you? She knew she was going to conceive you, correct? Yet, that never happened until the anticipated day finally arrived to become the Present. The event of your birth didn't take place in the Future, but eventually in the Present.

For me, and I assume for you, modern physics does not abolish Scholastic metaphysics. Arithmetic formulas that describe micro-level symmetrical interactions do not exhaust the ontological, common sense reality of change, whether locomotion or color, or pregnancy to birth.

In light of act/potency then, how can it be established that, in the common sense experience of physical change/growth, his mother's birthing of the 5 to 8 lb.? hcap "actualized" the "potency" of 1st trimester hcap? 1st trimester hcap has the potential to be 5-8lb. hcap, actualized by the processes of birth supplied by Mom. Does the latter have the potential to be 1st trimester hcap?

How have you not merely arbitrarily drawn your arrow "backwards" and rephrased, conceptualized the future moon-walking back to us vs. the common perception of time?

Return to your post. You necessarily began with the past to explain the future..." When your mother was pregnant"...

"The direction of causation is also the direction of explanation..."

https://www.wired.com/2017/05/defense-reality-time/

There are many paradoxes within the mystery of time/space/change. Theoretically I can never get to the front door from my chair, with the infinite divisions of matter along the way, but as a realist I know that I do.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There are no events of the future until the Future becomes the Present. Get this through your incredibly dense, thick skull: Time is consumed (used) only in the Present, which means events can only occur in the Present. This is precisely why no one knows what the Future may bring...that is to say, bring to the Present!

As I thought you have divorced the EVENTS of the future from your ambiguous concept of time. And therefore cause and effect becomes worthless as an indicator of the "apparent" direction of time here on the human scale.

That's why I asked you to define the future, the present and the past. It seems that you are using the 18th century concept of the phlogiston theory, as your time theory.

The phlogiston theory is a superseded scientific theory that postulated that a fire-like element called phlogiston is contained within combustible bodies and released during combustion.

Your future , which according to you precedes the present is only an energy source allowing events to take place. You seem to claim is that no events may happen (in any of the tenses?) unless "phlogiston " feeds them. You use time as a fluid, with "time" (phlogiston) flowing thru physaical matter and bodies. Amd whed it has been "combusted", in one tense, it becomes "used" or the ashes of that phlogiston. Unable to be used in another tense

Oy gevalt!

It is meaningless to hollow out events and cause and effect from TIME.
Just like your comparison to the earths rotation, time does not equate to a 3 dimensional direction or now as a substance like "phlogiston."

You may have Synaesthesia, a neurological condition in which activity in one sensory modality, such as vision or hearing, evokes automatic and involuntary perceptual experiences in another, due to increased cross-talk between the sensory pathways in the brain.

Confusing spatial dimensions with the time dimension.
Just sayin....

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Here, let me help you out, Hcap, with a concrete example of when "future events" actually happen.

When your mother was pregnant, did she look back to the Past to see when she would give birth to you? Or did she look forward to the Future -- to a date ahead when she would come to full term and give birth to you? She knew she was going to conceive you, correct? Yet, that never happened until the anticipated day finally arrived to become the Present. The event of your birth didn't take place in the Future, but eventually in the Present.

There is no "looking" backwards or forwards.

Biological processes like birth, growth and aging, all start at as a series of events BEFORE their maturation and culmination. I guess if you do not understand evolution, the growth of cells, microbes and animal and vegetable life from one or two cells and increasing in complexity as time progresses, is beyond your intellectual reach?

The past contains the seeds of future growth.

Ever do any gardening?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcasr

Here, let me help you out, Hcap, with a concrete example of when "future events" actually happen.

Future events have been happening for as long as we can remember. Yesterday, today and tomorrow are all relative to where we stand in the present. Yesterday was the present yesterday...........

You speak as though thee tenses of TIME must be separated over at least 24 hour periods. Yesterday, today and tomorrow. There is a much simpler and more direct way to understand TIME, events, and cause and effect.

The pool or billiard table. Newtonian physics and quite applicable to the human scale. No relativistic or quantum level complexities and pretty much what humanity has used naturally to understand TIME as best as could be done using brain and muscle.

One might even say over the last 100,000 years man has learned by trial and error quite often, what modern man now calls "correlation" of causes and their effects in everyday human events. Our history of accomplishing all engineering feats has depended on learning correlations. As does wagering on horse racing and most financial transactions depending upon prediction of future values..

How things work. Practical knowledge that can be pointed to as eminently workable.
Not your stilted preposterous pompous word games wihout a shred of real practical evidence

On a pool table the past, present and future can be illustrated and "compressed" down to the scale of minutes and seconds. If wew take aim at a ball let's say close to a pocket and manage to hit the ball correctly , there is a good chance the hit ball will go in. These sees of events covers before we hit the ball close to the poket, when we hit it, and after the hit.

And clearly illustrates the direction of these events in what we call the dimension of TIME.

The ball dropping into the corner pocket never precedes the cue ball striking it. Nor is any " phlogiston" of time used up in the process.

Nor does the ball dropping, the future, and the cue ball striking it the present ever, EVER precede the aiming and planning to perform this skill, the relative past.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Future events have been happening for as long as we can remember. Yesterday, today and tomorrow are all relative to where we stand in the present. Yesterday was the present yesterday...........

No kidding. All relative to the present. You're a walking, talking paragon of wisdom. Now, name one thing that has actually occurred in the Future.

You speak as though thee tenses of TIME must be separated over at least 24 hour periods. Yesterday, today and tomorrow. There is a much simpler and more direct way to understand TIME, events, and cause and effect.

The pool or billiard table. Newtonian physics and quite applicable to the human scale. No relativistic or quantum level complexities and pretty much what humanity has used naturally to understand TIME as best as could be done using brain and muscle.

One might even say over the last 100,000 years man has learned by trial and error quite often, what modern man now calls "correlation" of causes and their effects in everyday human events. Our history of accomplishing all engineering feats has depended on learning correlations. As does wagering on horse racing and most financial transactions depending upon prediction of future values..

How things work. Practical knowledge that can be pointed to as eminently workable.
Not your stilted preposterous pompous word games wihout a shred of real practical evidence

On a pool table the past, present and future can be illustrated and "compressed" down to the scale of minutes and seconds. If wew take aim at a ball let's say close to a pocket and manage to hit the ball correctly , there is a good chance the hit ball will go in. These sees of events covers before we hit the ball close to the poket, when we hit it, and after the hit.

And clearly illustrates the direction of these events in what we call the dimension of TIME.

The ball dropping into the corner pocket never precedes the cue ball striking it. Nor is any " phlogiston" of time used up in the process.

Nor does the ball dropping, the future, and the cue ball striking it the present ever, EVER precede the aiming and planning to perform this skill, the relative past.

[/quote]

Where your stupid analogy fails miserably is that it doesn't account for the time lapse between the cue ball leaving the stick and the pool ball dropping into the pocket. This time lapse makes the dropped ball occurring in the Present.