View Poll Results: Who Offers the Best PPs
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Equibase
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70 |
9.07% |
Brisnet
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443 |
57.38% |
DRF
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259 |
33.55% |
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02-19-2019, 08:24 PM
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#151
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,208
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TimeformUS. It would be hard to switch back from color coded PPs to black and white again.
If I can't use TimeformUS, I'll settle for the free BRIS PPs I find online.
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02-20-2019, 07:56 AM
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#152
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
There was a time period of about 2 years when I used nothing but the Equibase figures. I used them daily, and I couldn't have been happier with them. As far as I was concerned...they were the best speed figures in existence. But then, a little over a decade ago, Equibase announced that they were "recalibrating" their speed figures, to supposedly bring them up to the same scale as the Beyers. You see...the Beyers would often go well past the 100-figure...whereas the Equibase figures seldom ever climbed that high.
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I know you know what you are talking about thaskalos.
I don't know anything about Equibase altering their numbers to be in line with Beyers. If you say so, OK. But they arent even on the same scale. EB uses 80/number of furlongs to measure points per second and assumes closer to six lengths per second not five.
What I do know is that Beyer changed the Beyer speed figures in 2015 and all of a sudden his method is proprietary and he's not telling you how they are made now. This renders all those books he wrote; Picking Winners, Beyer on Speed, his sf charts etc; useless unless you just want to learn a way to make your own figs from scratch.
I'm sure both figs are useful. I know the EQB ones are. I consider EQB better though because they provide a first call pace figure. In addition the Equibase Track Digest has class ratings which takes the figures and compares them to the class they were earned for a very consistent rating.
It's nothing to me if someone prefers one over the other, but Equibase PP's or figures are not garbage as I read on this thread.
__________________
So sayeth the Ranger....
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02-20-2019, 09:08 AM
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#153
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 34
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The original question impacts only the handicappers whose handicapping is numbers driven -- be it human or computer generated. How about people, like myself, who do not cater any human or computer-generated numbers in their handicapping? Then the answer would be: It does not matter. It's only about the presentation of basic data and which format is kinder to eyes and easier to browse.
Basic race data comes from the single source, Equibase, regardless of the product. That's the basic thing.
So if you are a 'Number Guy' (Beyer, Prime Power etc), Paulick Report published four-part series , for better or worse, to understand that basic philosophy behind these numbers, as it exists today.
https://www.paulickreport.com/horsep...-beyer-method/
https://www.paulickreport.com/horsep...into-the-race/
https://www.paulickreport.com/horsep...demonstration/
https://www.paulickreport.com/horsep...ore-computing/
Last edited by GBL; 02-20-2019 at 09:15 AM.
Reason: Edits
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02-21-2019, 12:09 PM
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#154
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Data Warbucks
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 261
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Free Bris
this was months ago but I recall Keeneland Select letting you 'buy' the Bris PPs then refund the price if you made a bet on the card. Of course you had to make the bet on their service for it to count. So effectively you got Bris free unless you wanted to look at PPs but not bet on the race.
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02-21-2019, 12:11 PM
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#155
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Data Warbucks
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 261
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Free?
I use Xpressbet. How can I get free Equibase PPs?
Thanks In advance
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02-21-2019, 12:28 PM
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#156
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Data Warbucks
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 261
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tb analytics
I can buy that off of Today's Racing Digest website. I always thought it was connected to them (TRD). I've used them some but never got 'into' them. they have a lot of 'scores' for various attributes, pace, speed etc. as well as more traditional PPs.
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02-21-2019, 12:38 PM
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#157
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Data Warbucks
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 261
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Condition
I have been adding 'condition' to my approach. Since I am going by data 99% of the time and really wouldn't know much of what to look for if the horse was 6" in front of me I am going by info in PPs such as days since race, pattern of racing (days between, days off etc.) One thing I am unsure of is how to count for work outs. Are they as effective a conditioning as a real race? if not, how much less? Do you mind to share your approach to condition so that I may adopt some of your ideas as well?
Thank You in advance
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02-22-2019, 12:14 AM
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#158
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 171
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Equibase is under rated
I’ve been playing horses for 42 years, I have used all speed figures from Beyers, Brisnet,timeform and thorograph. For me I’ve made more money, had more winning tickets and winning contests using trackmaster flashnet product which uses the equibase Speed figure. Although the speed figure was much better before they re-calibrated it. Sometimes there are some off-the-wall figures. But using the speed figure with the class figure it’s so easy to handicap. you also get a running style for each horse, jockey combos,breeding stats, trainer and jockey stats and power ratings. I have compared them side-by-side with the competitors,I was still use the equibase speed figure and the flashnet product over everything and it’s a very easy and quick way to handicap instead of spending hours looking at the past performances.you narrow down your horses in minutes, this is my opinion. I’m very very happy with this product. And you can see this year the winner and some runner ups were using stats race lens in the National thoroughbred handicapping championship this year. which is also a Trackmaster equibase program.
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02-22-2019, 08:36 AM
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#159
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,238
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I can easily tell you were, and are, frustrated with the response you got, but since it wasn't me, as I've been at Equibase since late 2001, all I can do is try to remedy it to some extent.
If it were me, I would have shared (at least the summary) the various regressions which were done to insure that 95% or more of all winner's figures were distributed correctly on the new scale. If it was in the last couple of years, I would have shared some of the work done since the recaibration to smooth out outliers and the annual recalculations done (with the benefit of shipper studies) to insure the variants are as accurate as they can be.
That being said, I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the issues you had, but that discussion is better served via email or phone. I will be happy to share whatever data I can about the recalibration and continued efforts to insure the ESF is as efficient as possible in the handicapping process. Some of what you may want could be above my head and if that is the case I would be happy to put you in contact with David Siegel (who does post to PA occasionally), who can answer any issues I can't.
My intent is not to get you to switch back, but to try to remedy what transpired in your communication with TM previously.
If interested, please send me an email address via PM and I will reach out.
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02-22-2019, 12:39 PM
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#160
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubercapper
Some of what you may want could be above my head and if that is the case
I would be happy to put you in contact with David Siegel (who does post to PA occasionally), who can answer any issues I can't.
My intent is not to get you to switch back, but to try to remedy what transpired in your communication with TM previously.
If interested, please send me an email address via PM and I will reach out.
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I have called TM on 3 occasions to ask questions. I specifically asked for
David Siegel once as he said we could do in his youtube video. - I got the
bums rush every time.
Yet, there I am defending the figs higher in this thread. I don't have an axe
to grind but a lesser man might have copped an attitude and become one of
these detractors here.
TM could do it's self a favor by warming up to it's customers a little. Instead
of "we don't have any customer facing solutions like that", click.
__________________
So sayeth the Ranger....
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02-25-2019, 09:41 AM
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#161
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,238
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Unfortunately, I can't address the past as I wasn't involved. I was at TM from 95-2001 and still work closely with them on a number of things.
If you still have questions, send me a PM and we can email or speak by phone. If there's something I can't address I'll try to get the answers.
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02-26-2019, 09:11 AM
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#162
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA.
Posts: 7,464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gakiss2
this was months ago but I recall Keeneland Select letting you 'buy' the Bris PPs then refund the price if you made a bet on the card. Of course you had to make the bet on their service for it to count. So effectively you got Bris free unless you wanted to look at PPs but not bet on the race.
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You can do that everyday on twinspires, free pps if you bet $2 or more.....and on drf you can buy the timeform pps and get them for free with a $5 bet, or buy drf pps and get them for free with a $25 bet
Last edited by pandy; 02-26-2019 at 09:12 AM.
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02-26-2019, 09:42 PM
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#163
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Data Warbucks
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
You can do that everyday on twinspires, free pps if you bet $2 or more.....and on drf you can buy the timeform pps and get them for free with a $5 bet, or buy drf pps and get them for free with a $25 bet
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Thank You for the info.
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03-04-2019, 08:00 PM
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#164
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBL
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There were a couple of minor errors in that series, but it was still an excellent look into the technical and philosophical differences between the figure makers. That's what accounts for all the differences you see if you lay out the figures for multiple providers for any race.
I used to spend a LOT of time trying to understand all those differences and work towards a more perfect figure. But ultimately I decided that figures aren't best used to separate closely matched contenders. There are too many subtle subjective, philosophical, technical, and trip related issues that impact them for them to be reliable. IMO, their best use is to quickly identify contenders that you can then separate by digging deeper into those back races, making projections about today's race, and most importantly deciding if you are getting a good price.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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03-25-2019, 12:25 PM
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#165
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldee wins
I’ve been playing horses for 42 years, I have used all speed figures from Beyers, Brisnet,timeform and thorograph. For me I’ve made more money, had more winning tickets and winning contests using trackmaster flashnet product which uses the equibase Speed figure. Although the speed figure was much better before they re-calibrated it. Sometimes there are some off-the-wall figures. But using the speed figure with the class figure it’s so easy to handicap. you also get a running style for each horse, jockey combos,breeding stats, trainer and jockey stats and power ratings. I have compared them side-by-side with the competitors,I was still use the equibase speed figure and the flashnet product over everything and it’s a very easy and quick way to handicap instead of spending hours looking at the past performances.you narrow down your horses in minutes, this is my opinion. I’m very very happy with this product. And you can see this year the winner and some runner ups were using stats race lens in the National thoroughbred handicapping championship this year. which is also a Trackmaster equibase program.
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how you found this is well summed up with the power rating or have you been looking at these separately or combining them yourself? Thanks
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