Religious

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Now that is humorous.

Then why don't you humor me by answering my questions in 14318, and I'll show you what is "humorous"?

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

First of all, I didn't assign guilt to God. I asked you a question. You see, PA, Thask and others here have assigned guilt to God. And since you're so worldly-minded, I wanted to know if you believe as they do.

No you didn't. You asked me to assign guilt to God by your false premise either the human beings or God is guilty. You assume I am like you worldly minded. I assure you I am not. Unlike you I do not give lip service to God's sovereignty and then say let me tell you why God can't do this. Your theology is based in humanism and it suits you well.

Acts 3:14-16
14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
NIV

Asking is not doing. What is humorous is your insistent behavior of equating words with different meanings. Scripture clearly states the Jews asked, not did, the government did the doing. Pilate had the authority to refuse the request.

Or did God's predestination force them to sin by carrying out his eternal plan?

That is Luther's position. God causes man to sin.

God allowed Satan to possess Judas! (Now talk about someone being "controlled" by another entity!) So, is Judas guilty of betraying Christ or did the devil make him do it, since God granted Satan that power? Can Judas really be accountable since it appears he wasn't in control of his faculties?

God allowed it, because Judas allowed it. Judas gave into the devil's temptation. (John 13:2). So Judas is guilty of sin. There are no references in Scripture saying Judas was not in control of his facilities, when the devil induced him. Again, you try and use a false premise as your primary weapon to induce me to make a false choice.

I think you're wetter than Pilate's hands were. Jesus never told Pilate that he was innocent. Quite the contrary!

This was already addressed in my post about culpability. For emphasis, Jesus did not tell Pilate that Pilate was culpable for Jesus' death, as you allege.

Alright I got back to you. All your post proved is your use of false premise, use of false equivalencies of words and use of innuendo. For you to hog tie me or anyone, we would have to tie the knots ourselves, by agreeing with illogical reasoning.

Now that I reflect upon my statement, I see my mistake. Your attempt at logic is pathetic rather than humorous.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

No you didn't. You asked me to assign guilt to God by your false premise either the human beings or God is guilty. You assume I am like you worldly minded. I assure you I am not. Unlike you I do not give lip service to God's sovereignty and then say let me tell you why God can't do this. Your theology is based in humanism and it suits you well.

You're a liar. I never said what you claim, Mr. Worldy Wise Man.

Acts 3:14-16
14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 YOU killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
NIV [/I]

Asking is not doing. What is humorous is your insistent behavior of equating words with different meanings. Scripture clearly states the Jews asked, not did, the government did the doing. Pilate had the authority to refuse the request.

You are insane! The Jews played a very active role in Christ's death. It was by the Jews' DOING that they tried Christ illegally and delivered him up to Pilate. And the did a lot with their mouths by insisting three times that Pilate crucify Christ. They were so hateful toward Him and adamant about him dying that they even called down a curse upon themselves and their children's heads!

Very good. So now we have you on record as being in total disagreement with what papa1 told his brethren, according to the flesh. What part of YOU KILLED the AUTHOR of LIFE", don't you get? Papa1 must be rolling over in his grave that you don't believe his infallible words.

That is Luther's position. God causes man to sin.

Maybe Luther got that idea from this passage?

Isa 63:17a
17 Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways,
And harden our heart from fearing Thee?
NASB

Or this one, perhaps?

Ps 141:4
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing,
To practice deeds of wickedness
With men who do iniquity;
And do not let me eat of their delicacies.
NASB

If you need more passages, let me know.

God allowed it, because Judas allowed it. Judas gave into the devil's temptation. (John 13:2). So Judas is guilty of sin. There are no references in Scripture saying Judas was not in control of his facilities, when the devil induced him. Again, you try and use a false premise as your primary weapon to induce me to make a false choice.

Then why would God need to allow it since Judas pre-allowed God's allowing? Besides...God could have protected Judas just as he protected Sarah from Abimelech, but He chose NOT to. Hmm...

Also, don't you know that God's will is not contingent on man's will?

Eph 1:11-12
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB

This was already addressed in my post about culpability. For emphasis, Jesus did not tell Pilate that Pilate was culpable for Jesus' death, as you allege.

Sure he did. He told Pilate that he who delivered Him up to him had the GREATER SIN, which means Pilate still had sin -- just not more sin that he who delivered Jesus up to him! Learn to read, already. Greater sin by another means lesser sin for Pilate.

Alright I got back to you. All your post proved is your use of false premise, use of false equivalencies of words and use of innuendo. For you to hog tie me or anyone, we would have to tie the knots ourselves, by agreeing with illogical reasoning.

Now that I reflect upon my statement, I see my mistake. Your attempt at logic is pathetic rather than humorous.

This isn't about logic. It's about seeing how far you will stray from the infallible, authoritative Word of God. The more you stray, the more you will ensnare yourself in your own lies and wonky logic. You already disagree with Peter and Jesus and Paul. Peter told the Jews that THEY killed Jesus.

Jesus told Pilate that his sin in the sordid affair wasn't as great as the sin of those who delivered Him up to the governor. Jesus never told Pilate that he was an innocent man.

And you disagree with Paul that God's will is not contingent on man's. God works ALL things after the counsel of his OWN will. Very good. 3 strikes already. And we're just getting underway.

Also, I'm curious: Did Job suffer at the hands of the evil one because he allowed Satan to inflict him or because God granted Satan that power? Did Satan go to Peter to ask him for permission to sift him as wheat or did Satan seek God's permission? You might wanna rethink your Judas answer...Just sayin'.

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

Ps 141:4
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing,
To practice deeds of wickedness
With men who do iniquity;
And do not let me eat of their delicacies.
NASB

How can God incline an inherently evil man to be evil? Remember your position is all men are evil as a result of Adam's sin. Thus no inclination is necessary. Unless man is not inherently evil and you are saying God makes man evil. So you believe according by your support of Luther and your citing of this Psalm man is not evil, until God inclines his heart to evil? Interesting.

I am glad to have you on record supporting God has to incline man to evil and God cause man to sin.

You are insane! The Jews played a very active role in Christ's death. It was by the Jews' DOING that they tried Christ illegally and delivered him up to Pilate. And the did a lot with their mouths by insisting three times that Pilate crucify Christ. They were so hateful toward Him and adamant about him dying that they even called down a curse upon themselves and their children's heads!

I never denied the Jewish religious authorities played an active role or did not know what they were doing. You are adding to my words. The apostles were Jews did they ask for Jesus' death? Nicodemus was not in favor of the arrest and trial of Jesus for blasphemy. All the Jews all over the world and even in Jerusalem did not ask for Jesus' death. The majority didn't even know about the arrest or trial. Anyone thinking every Jew is responsible for the asking for Jesus's death certainly qualifies as insane.

What part of YOU KILLED the AUTHOR of LIFE", don't you get? Papa1 must be rolling over in his grave that you don't believe his infallible words.

First, another false premise stated by you. The Gospel writers were referring to the Jewish authorities and the doctrines of the Messiah. Otherwise Peter himself is guilty of Christ's murder as a Jew according to your interpretation. Peter certainly was not accusing himself, the other Apostles, Mary mother of God as Jews guilty of Jesus' death.

Rational people understand the charge is against the Jewish religious authorities and the Jewish belief in a the Messiah that would establish a worldly kingdom.

Secondly, the doctrine you cite was not formalized during Peter's time period, but about 1900 plus years later. The doctrine was formalized upon Peter's actions.

You're a liar. I never said what you claim, Mr. Worldy Wise Man.

You do all the time. You are always preaching of God's sovereignty and saying God is limited in carrying out His will due to His righteousness or some reason. The pygmy in the forest example is just one that comes to mind. According to you God can't save the righteous pygmy, who never heard of Jesus due to God's righteousness.

Also, don't you know that God's will is not contingent on man's will?Eph 1:11-12

11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB

Correct, God's plan for salvation will go forward regardless of man's will. To be predestined to be like the Christ the first fruit. Glad you finally get it.

Thus, you agree God is not limited, by his righteousness or any other attribute, and can save the righteous pygmy in the forest. Correct?

Sure he did. He told Pilate that he who delivered Him up to him had the GREATER SIN, which means Pilate still had sin -- just not more sin that he who delivered Jesus up to him! Learn to read, already. Greater sin by another means lesser sin for Pilate.

No doubt. However, you are adding unto Jesus' words. The context is about taking authority over Jesus. Judas betrayed Jesus to the Jewish authorities, giving them authority over him for a trial. Pilate assumed he had the authority over Jesus too. Jesus did not say you are guilty of murdering me to Pilate. How could Pilate been less guilty of the sin of murdering Jesus than Judas? He couldn't, therefore Jesus was not charging Pilate with the sin of his murder, as you propose.

This isn't about logic. It's about seeing how far you will stray from the infallible, authoritative Word of God. The more you stray, the more you will ensnare yourself in your own lies and wonky logic. You already disagree with Peter and Jesus and Paul. Peter told the Jews that THEY killed Jesus.

It is about your illogical arguments and assumptions. I do not stray as you try to prove with your false premises. On the contrary I am in agreement with Peter about the Jewish religious authorities.

You should be physically exhausted swinging that bat you whiff with every time you step into the batter's box.

[Show Me the Wire]

boxcar,

Since you agree with Luther that God causes man to sin, why do you profess Sola Scriptura when you disagree with Scripture? No wonder Thask is confused.

Did you know Scripture teaches God does not cause man to sin?

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. James 1:13

[Show Me the Wire]

Then why would God need to allow it since Judas pre-allowed God's allowing? Besides...God could have protected Judas just as he protected Sarah from Abimelech, but He chose NOT to. Hmm.

non sequitur to the original question about Judas being in control of his faculties.

God allowed Satan to possess Judas! (Now talk about someone being "controlled" by another entity!) So, is Judas guilty of betraying Christ or did the devil make him do it, since God granted Satan that power? Can Judas really be accountable since it appears he wasn't in control of his faculties?

[Show Me the Wire]

Then why would God need to allow it since Judas pre-allowed God's allowing? Besides...God could have protected Judas just as he protected Sarah from Abimelech, but He chose NOT to. Hmm.

Also, I'm curious: Did Job suffer at the hands of the evil one because he allowed Satan to inflict him or because God granted Satan that power? Did Satan go to Peter to ask him for permission to sift him as wheat or did Satan seek God's permission? You might wanna rethink your Judas answer...Just sayin'.

Are you curious, because you don't understand Scripture and that is why you believe God causes man to sin? No wonder you don't understand why God didn't protect Judas.

Job and Judas have different situations. Scripture plainly states Judas gave into temptation. (John 13:2), while Job was not tempted but attacked by satan. God allowed satan's attack to test if Job would curse God, like other men, if God withdrew God's protection from Job.

Two different situations. One man gave into into temptation and another was targeted by satan due to God's protection of an upright and blameless man. God allows satan to act as a test of man's love for God, not to induce sin (Job).

God does not cause man to sin (John 13:2), as you believe, but allows testing, which may result in man sinning. Man is responsible for his acquiescence with satan's temptations. When man fails the test and is induced by satan, man gives authority over him to satan. This is what Judas did so God did not protect Judas, especially since Jesus taught the apostles by example how to defeat satan's temptations. Judas did not learn his lesson. Understand now?

God does not cause sin, so I don't have to rethink my answer. You need to rethink your errors in your interpretations.

p.s. Always happy to help a lost Christian.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

How can God incline an inherently evil man to be evil? Remember your position is all men are evil as a result of Adam's sin. Thus no inclination is necessary. Unless man is not inherently evil and you are saying God makes man evil. So you believe according by your support of Luther and your citing of this Psalm man is not evil, until God inclines his heart to evil? Interesting.

I didn't say that. But strike 4 for you. So, now you disagree with the Psalmist's petition to God? His petition and man's depravity are not mutually exclusive. But to answer your question, I point you to Acts 2:23; 4:27-28 wherein all the parties involved with Christ's death did precisely what God ordained. There is an inverse relationship between God's grace and man's depravity. The more grace God withdraws or withholds, the more depraved man becomes. Do you know what gravity does? It is a force that incesantly pulls things down to the earth. Only if a book,for example, is held up by a force stronger than gravity, can the book remain higher than the ground or floor. But if the hand that is supporting the book is withdrawn, then the book will invariably fall. And so it is with man. The greater support (grace) God gives to a man, the less sinful he is. But as that support is withdrawn, man will fall deeper into sin. He will become more depraved. If God were to withdraw all his support from any human being, the person would become the devil incarnate -- probably along the lines of what the Antichrist will be. Good analogy, huh?

I am glad to have you on record supporting God has to incline man to evil and God cause man to sin.

Again you're lying. Neither the Psalmist or I said that.

So now God is the cause of man's sin?

You tell me. What part of Isa 63:17 don't you get?

I never denied the Jewish religious authorities played an active role or did not know what they were doing. You are adding to my words. The apostles were Jews did they ask for Jesus' death? Nicodemus was not in favor of the arrest and trial of Jesus for blasphemy. All the Jews all over the world and even in Jerusalem did not ask for Jesus' death. The majority didn't even know about the arrest or trial. Anyone thinking every Jew is responsible for the asking for Jesus's death certainly qualifies as insane.

But you tried to revise the biblical historcal account by pretending that the Jews played a relatively minor role. They just politely asked Pilate to murder the Messiah. Even right now, you're trying to cover up the facts by greatly discounting what scripture says happened. You're trying to lay all the blame on just a handful of Jewish religious leaders. But scripture says otherwise:

Read Peter's prayer:

Acts 4:24-29
24 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is Thou who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
26 'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'

27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur.
NASB

Peter casts a much larger net than you do. Both the prophet David and Peter agree that guilty parties where the Gentiles, the Gentile rulers (kings), Herod, Pontius Pilate and THE PEOPLES OF ISRAEL. This in no wise means each and every person in Israel, which is your absurd conclusion. But the nation of Israel, as a whole, rejected their Messiah. Why do you think the kingdom was taken away from the Nation of Israel? So quit lying already about what scripture says about this matter. You are always making God out to be the liar so that you can try to make yourself to be truthful.

First, another false premise stated by you. The Gospel writers were referring to the Jewish authorities and the doctrines of the Messiah. Otherwise Peter himself is guilty of Christ's murder as a Jew according to your interpretation. Peter certainly was not accusing himself, the other Apostles, Mary mother of God as Jews guilty of Jesus' death.

Rational people understand the charge is against the Jewish religious authorities and the Jewish belief in a the Messiah that would establish a worldly kingdom.

Secondly, the doctrine you cite was not formalized during Peter's time period, but about 1900 plus years later. The doctrine was formalized upon Peter's actions.

What "doctrines of the Messiah" would those be, specifically?

More lies. Let's look closer at the context of Act 3:14-15. Earlier on it tells us who Peter was addressing:

Acts 3:12-13
12 But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk?
NASB

At this point, gives his sermon to the "men of Israel" -- not just the religious leaders. And part of the sermon reads:

Acts 3:12-16
l2 at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk? 13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14 "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
NASB

And now, Mr. Deceiver, listen to papa1, carefully:

Acts 3:17
17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.
NASB

In Peter's mind both the people and the rulers of Israel were guilty! So stuff your revisionism!

You do all the time. You are always preaching of God's sovereignty and saying God is limited in carrying out His will due to His righteousness or some reason. The pygmy in the forest example is just one that comes to mind. According to you God can't save the righteous pygmy, who never heard of Jesus due to God's righteousness.

Another lie. Prove your statements. It's not that I limit God; but it is YOU who exceed the limitations of his authoritative Word. My bible tells me that without faith it's impossible to please God. And my bible tells me that man is saved by grace through faith. If you have some secret revelation that I'm not aware of, then please share it with us. Otherwise, flush your pgymy theory down the nearest commode.

Correct, God's plan for salvation will go forward regardless of man's will. To be predestined to be like the Christ the first fruit. Glad you finally get it.

Learn to read. The Epheisans 1 passage doesn't say anything about being predistined to be conformed to His image. But even if it did -- what does that say about all the people in the world who are not predestined to be conformed to Christ's image? These people have only one fate of doom awaiting them. While the predestined ones are destined for glory. As you have just said -- God's plan will always go forward, despite what man wills. I'm so happy you have finally come to grips with this great doctrine. Congratulations.

Thus, you agree God is not limited, by his righteousness or any other attribute, and can save the righteous pygmy in the forest. Correct?

You tell me. What does scripture say about the little guy in the dark bush who has never heard the gospel?

No doubt. However, you are adding unto Jesus' words. The context is about taking authority over Jesus. Judas betrayed Jesus to the Jewish authorities, giving them authority over him for a trial. Pilate assumed he had the authority over Jesus too. Jesus did not say you are guilty of murdering me to Pilate. How could Pilate been less guilty of the sin of murdering Jesus than Judas? He couldn't, therefore Jesus was not charging Pilate with the sin of his murder, as you propose.

Again you lie. I never said that Jesus charged Pilate with murder. Peter charged the Jews will killing Jesus, remember? All Jesus told Pilate was that his sin wasn't as great as the one's who delivered Him up to be tried by him.

It is about your illogical arguments and assumptions. I do not stray as you try to prove with your false premises. On the contrary I am in agreement with Peter about the Jewish religious authorities.

St. Pete went way beyond just the "Jewish religious authorities". Try pulling your head out of the sand long enough to look at the passages I've quoted above. You're a horrible revisionist -- all in the name of political correctness.

You should be physically exhausted swinging that bat you whiff with every time you step into the batter's box.

Shirley U. Jest. Deceivers like you are easy to bat down.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Are you curious, because you don't understand Scripture and that is why you believe God causes man to sin? No wonder you don't understand why God didn't protect Judas.

Job and Judas have different situations. Scripture plainly states Judas gave into temptation. (John 13:2), while Job was not tempted but attacked by satan. God allowed satan's attack to test if Job would curse God, like other men, if God withdrew God's protection from Job.

Two different situations. One man gave into into temptation and another was targeted by satan due to God's protection of an upright and blameless man. God allows satan to act as a test of man's love for God, not to induce sin (Job).

God does not cause man to sin (John 13:2), as you believe, but allows testing, which may result in man sinning. Man is responsible for his acquiescence with satan's temptations. When man fails the test and is induced by satan, man gives authority over him to satan. This is what Judas did so God did not protect Judas, especially since Jesus taught the apostles by example how to defeat satan's temptations. Judas did not learn his lesson. Understand now?

God does not cause sin, so I don't have to rethink my answer. You need to rethink your errors in your interpretations.

You're lying about Judas. John 13:2 doesn't say anything about Judas being tempted. Besides the issue with him isn't temptation per se, but possession by Satan himself. Could Satan have possessed Judas without God's permission? Be careful how you answer. For if Satan can do anything by his own power, then you'll become an advocate and preacher of the Dualism heresy.

And you forgot about Peter. Satan sifted Peter like wheat. By God's permission, I might add. And Peter sinned. But if God hadn't granted Satan's request, chances are good that Peter would not have sinned. So, who is ultimately the blame in Peter's sin? It seems like the situation with Peter's sin is an excellent illustration of the teaching in Isa 63:17, right? God used Satan to cause Peter's sin, yes? And the fact that Satan has to seek God's permission to "touch" Peter teaches that Satan has no power of his own. The only power he has is what God gives to him. Satan is to God what the moon is to the sun. The moon only gets its light from the sun. It has no light (power) of its own. All the power and light resides with the Sun of Righteousness.

Isa 63:17
17 Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways,
And harden our heart from fearing Thee?
NASB

p.s. Always happy to help a lost Christian.

If I needed help, it's not possible that someone as blind and hardened as you would be up to the task.

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

I think we need a panel of judges to keep score...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

They were so hateful toward Him and adamant about him dying that they even called down a curse upon themselves and their children's heads!

Now why in the world would they do something like that? This part of the Bible needs to be reviewed for accuracy.

[Show Me the Wire]

You're lying about Judas. John 13:2 doesn't say anything about Judas being tempted. Besides the issue with him isn't temptation per se, but possession by Satan himself. Could Satan have possessed Judas without God's permission? Be careful how you answer. For if Satan can do anything by his own power, then you'll become an advocate and preacher of the Dualism heresy.

That is why you don't understand what you preach.

2 The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray him. How did satan put it in Judas's heart? As he always does by temptation. Judas was not possessed, he fell under temptation. just as satan tempted Eve to desire the fruit. Satan did not possess either one. Again you add words to Scripture.

I never said or implied satan could do anything by his own power. That is your gig that satan owns everyone born into the world lock, stock, and barrel. Read me answer I said God allowed satan to attack Job and to test Judas.

Satan sifted Peter like wheat.

Really, satan asked for permission. Nothing different than I said in my prior postings. God gives permission to test man's love for God. So you believe satan needed permission to tempt Adam and Eve.

I didn't forget about Peter. You asked specifically about Judas and Job.

Satan has no power of his own.

I've been telling you that from the time you posted your error about satan owning everyone lock, stock, and barrel. Very happy you finally understand. See I helped you eliminate your heresy about satan owning every man. Don't worry we are making progress.

I didn't say that.

Yes you have said man is inherently evil many times. Hcap even asked you about this evil gene. Don't lie.

If man is inherently evil as you claimed, then man's heart cannot be inclined to evil as it is already evil.

So, now you disagree with the Psalmist's petition to God?

No, I don't. Man is not inherently evil so it is proper to ask God to keep your heart from evil inclinations. Just like the psalmist asks in the psalm.

There is such thing as moral total depravity. Another product of you adding words to Scripture.

But you tried to revise the biblical historcal account by pretending that the Jews played a relatively minor role. They just politely asked Pilate to murder the Messiah. Even right now, you're trying to cover up the facts by greatly discounting what scripture says happened. You're trying to lay all the blame on just a handful of Jewish religious leaders. But scripture says otherwise:

I said the Jewish religious authorities played a prominent role and knew what they were doing. Are you saying Peter indicted himself, the other apostles and Mary mother of God too because they were Jews. Sorry that is not what Scripture states.

About everybody being guilty, I agree. All humanity bears the guilt. Jesus died for the sins of the world, which includes the Gentiles. I have said that consistently. So you and I bore the guilt too.

Yes, the nation of Israel as a whole is guilty too. Did you not understand I stated they were guilty for not recognizing the Messiah due to their doctrine. They falsely believed in a Messiah that would restore a Davidic Kingdom on earth and failed to recognize the promised Messiah.

Another lie. Prove your statements. It's not that I limit God; but it is YOU who exceed the limitations of his authoritative Word. My bible tells me that without faith it's impossible to please God. And my bible tells me that man is saved by grace through faith. If you have some secret revelation that I'm not aware of, then please share it with us. Otherwise, flush your pgymy theory down the nearest commode.

You just proved it. A sovereign God does want he wants. Look up the definition of Sovereign.

Learn to read.

He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren Romans 8:29

Being confirmed to the image of Christ is part of God's plan of salvation.

And foreknew is not equal to your concept of the elect. Foreknew is God's foreknowledge of what will happen and not God's selection of specific people.

Always happy to help.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Now why in the world would they do something like that? This part of the Bible needs to be reviewed for accuracy.

Common sense to me, given Israel's rather checkered history. Israel has the dubious honor of going being punished three times due it apostasy -- first by Assyria, then by Babylon, then by the Romans. Why are you so incredulous? History testifies against Israel.

Matt 23:31-39
31 "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? 34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ' Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"
NASB

And, sadly, to this day, most are still unwilling to come to the Messiah.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And, sadly, to this day, most are still unwilling to come to the Messiah.

Boxcar

Yes, I'm sure you weep openly for them often.

How about answering the question...why would Jews curse themselves? Why in the world would they say "His blood be upon us and on our children."

Why would they give a crap if they believed Jesus was not the Messiah?

That particular Bible passage makes absolutely no sense.

Explain it to this simpleton son of the Devil, if you can.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I think we need a panel of judges to keep score...

Well if you are keeping score we have had two significant reversals. One the acceptance that satan has no power of his own. Therefore, satan does not own every one born into this world lock, stock and barrel. Second the Jews by themselves do not bear the guilt of Jesus's death, it is shared by the Gentiles.

Let's see how long these reversals will stand?