Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Off Topic > Off Topic - General
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 111 votes, 4.96 average. Display Modes
Old Today, 04:54 PM   #14326
boxcar
Registered User
 
boxcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 21,088
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire
Now that is humorous.


Then why don't you humor me by answering my questions in 14318, and I'll show you what is "humorous"?

Boxcar
__________________
Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. - 1Cor 6:9-10
boxcar is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old Today, 05:45 PM   #14327
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,910
vCash: 400
Quote:
First of all, I didn't assign guilt to God. I asked you a question. You see, PA, Thask and others here have assigned guilt to God. And since you're so worldly-minded, I wanted to know if you believe as they do.


No you didn't. You asked me to assign guilt to God by your false premise either the human beings or God is guilty. You assume I am like you worldly minded. I assure you I am not. Unlike you I do not give lip service to God's sovereignty and then say let me tell you why God can't do this. Your theology is based in humanism and it suits you well.

Acts 3:14-16
14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
NIV


Asking is not doing. What is humorous is your insistent behavior of equating words with different meanings. Scripture clearly states the Jews asked, not did, the government did the doing. Pilate had the authority to refuse the request.

Quote:
Or did God's predestination force them to sin by carrying out his eternal plan?


That is Luther's position. God causes man to sin.

Quote:
God allowed Satan to possess Judas! (Now talk about someone being "controlled" by another entity!) So, is Judas guilty of betraying Christ or did the devil make him do it, since God granted Satan that power? Can Judas really be accountable since it appears he wasn't in control of his faculties?


God allowed it, because Judas allowed it. Judas gave into the devil's temptation. (John 13:2). So Judas is guilty of sin. There are no references in Scripture saying Judas was not in control of his facilities, when the devil induced him. Again, you try and use a false premise as your primary weapon to induce me to make a false choice.

Quote:
I think you're wetter than Pilate's hands were. Jesus never told Pilate that he was innocent. Quite the contrary!



This was already addressed in my post about culpability. For emphasis, Jesus did not tell Pilate that Pilate was culpable for Jesus' death, as you allege.

Alright I got back to you. All your post proved is your use of false premise, use of false equivalencies of words and use of innuendo. For you to hog tie me or anyone, we would have to tie the knots ourselves, by agreeing with illogical reasoning.

Now that I reflect upon my statement, I see my mistake. Your attempt at logic is pathetic rather than humorous.
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity. Padre Pio, mystic


The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe. Dr. Ian Stevenson, University of Virginia’s School of Medicine, Division of Perceptual Studies

Last edited by Show Me the Wire : Today at 05:54 PM.
Show Me the Wire is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old Today, 07:26 PM   #14328
boxcar
Registered User
 
boxcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 21,088
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire
No you didn't. You asked me to assign guilt to God by your false premise either the human beings or God is guilty. You assume I am like you worldly minded. I assure you I am not. Unlike you I do not give lip service to God's sovereignty and then say let me tell you why God can't do this. Your theology is based in humanism and it suits you well.


You're a liar. I never said what you claim, Mr. Worldy Wise Man.

Acts 3:14-16
14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 YOU killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
NIV [/I]

Quote:
Asking is not doing. What is humorous is your insistent behavior of equating words with different meanings. Scripture clearly states the Jews asked, not did, the government did the doing. Pilate had the authority to refuse the request.


You are insane! The Jews played a very active role in Christ's death. It was by the Jews' DOING that they tried Christ illegally and delivered him up to Pilate. And the did a lot with their mouths by insisting three times that Pilate crucify Christ. They were so hateful toward Him and adamant about him dying that they even called down a curse upon themselves and their children's heads!

Very good. So now we have you on record as being in total disagreement with what papa1 told his brethren, according to the flesh. What part of YOU KILLED the AUTHOR of LIFE", don't you get? Papa1 must be rolling over in his grave that you don't believe his infallible words.

Quote:
That is Luther's position. God causes man to sin.


Maybe Luther got that idea from this passage?

Isa 63:17a
17 Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways,
And harden our heart from fearing Thee?

NASB

Or this one, perhaps?

Ps 141:4
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing,
To practice deeds of wickedness
With men who do iniquity;
And do not let me eat of their delicacies.

NASB

If you need more passages, let me know.

Quote:
God allowed it, because Judas allowed it. Judas gave into the devil's temptation. (John 13:2). So Judas is guilty of sin. There are no references in Scripture saying Judas was not in control of his facilities, when the devil induced him. Again, you try and use a false premise as your primary weapon to induce me to make a false choice.


Then why would God need to allow it since Judas pre-allowed God's allowing? Besides...God could have protected Judas just as he protected Sarah from Abimelech, but He chose NOT to. Hmm...

Also, don't you know that God's will is not contingent on man's will?

Eph 1:11-12
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB

Quote:
This was already addressed in my post about culpability. For emphasis, Jesus did not tell Pilate that Pilate was culpable for Jesus' death, as you allege.


Sure he did. He told Pilate that he who delivered Him up to him had the GREATER SIN, which means Pilate still had sin -- just not more sin that he who delivered Jesus up to him! Learn to read, already. Greater sin by another means lesser sin for Pilate.

Quote:
Alright I got back to you. All your post proved is your use of false premise, use of false equivalencies of words and use of innuendo. For you to hog tie me or anyone, we would have to tie the knots ourselves, by agreeing with illogical reasoning.

Now that I reflect upon my statement, I see my mistake. Your attempt at logic is pathetic rather than humorous.


This isn't about logic. It's about seeing how far you will stray from the infallible, authoritative Word of God. The more you stray, the more you will ensnare yourself in your own lies and wonky logic. You already disagree with Peter and Jesus and Paul. Peter told the Jews that THEY killed Jesus.

Jesus told Pilate that his sin in the sordid affair wasn't as great as the sin of those who delivered Him up to the governor. Jesus never told Pilate that he was an innocent man.

And you disagree with Paul that God's will is not contingent on man's. God works ALL things after the counsel of his OWN will. Very good. 3 strikes already. And we're just getting underway.

Also, I'm curious: Did Job suffer at the hands of the evil one because he allowed Satan to inflict him or because God granted Satan that power? Did Satan go to Peter to ask him for permission to sift him as wheat or did Satan seek God's permission? You might wanna rethink your Judas answer...Just sayin'.

Boxcar
__________________
Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. - 1Cor 6:9-10
boxcar is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old Today, 08:08 PM   #14329
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,910
vCash: 400
Quote:
Ps 141:4
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing,
To practice deeds of wickedness
With men who do iniquity;
And do not let me eat of their delicacies.
NASB


How can God incline an inherently evil man to be evil? Remember your position is all men are evil as a result of Adam's sin. Thus no inclination is necessary. Unless man is not inherently evil and you are saying God makes man evil. So you believe according by your support of Luther and your citing of this Psalm man is not evil, until God inclines his heart to evil? Interesting.

I am glad to have you on record supporting God has to incline man to evil and God cause man to sin.

Quote:
You are insane! The Jews played a very active role in Christ's death. It was by the Jews' DOING that they tried Christ illegally and delivered him up to Pilate. And the did a lot with their mouths by insisting three times that Pilate crucify Christ. They were so hateful toward Him and adamant about him dying that they even called down a curse upon themselves and their children's heads!


I never denied the Jewish religious authorities played an active role or did not know what they were doing. You are adding to my words. The apostles were Jews did they ask for Jesus' death? Nicodemus was not in favor of the arrest and trial of Jesus for blasphemy. All the Jews all over the world and even in Jerusalem did not ask for Jesus' death. The majority didn't even know about the arrest or trial. Anyone thinking every Jew is responsible for the asking for Jesus's death certainly qualifies as insane.

Quote:
What part of YOU KILLED the AUTHOR of LIFE", don't you get? Papa1 must be rolling over in his grave that you don't believe his infallible words.


First, another false premise stated by you. The Gospel writers were referring to the Jewish authorities and the doctrines of the Messiah. Otherwise Peter himself is guilty of Christ's murder as a Jew according to your interpretation. Peter certainly was not accusing himself, the other Apostles, Mary mother of God as Jews guilty of Jesus' death.

Rational people understand the charge is against the Jewish religious authorities and the Jewish belief in a the Messiah that would establish a worldly kingdom.

Secondly, the doctrine you cite was not formalized during Peter's time period, but about 1900 plus years later. The doctrine was formalized upon Peter's actions.

Quote:
You're a liar. I never said what you claim, Mr. Worldy Wise Man.


You do all the time. You are always preaching of God's sovereignty and saying God is limited in carrying out His will due to His righteousness or some reason. The pygmy in the forest example is just one that comes to mind. According to you God can't save the righteous pygmy, who never heard of Jesus due to God's righteousness.

Quote:
Also, don't you know that God's will is not contingent on man's will?Eph 1:11-12

11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB


Correct, God's plan for salvation will go forward regardless of man's will. To be predestined to be like the Christ the first fruit. Glad you finally get it.

Thus, you agree God is not limited, by his righteousness or any other attribute, and can save the righteous pygmy in the forest. Correct?

Quote:
Sure he did. He told Pilate that he who delivered Him up to him had the GREATER SIN, which means Pilate still had sin -- just not more sin that he who delivered Jesus up to him! Learn to read, already. Greater sin by another means lesser sin for Pilate.


No doubt. However, you are adding unto Jesus' words. The context is about taking authority over Jesus. Judas betrayed Jesus to the Jewish authorities, giving them authority over him for a trial. Pilate assumed he had the authority over Jesus too. Jesus did not say you are guilty of murdering me to Pilate. How could Pilate been less guilty of the sin of murdering Jesus than Judas? He couldn't, therefore Jesus was not charging Pilate with the sin of his murder, as you propose.

Quote:
This isn't about logic. It's about seeing how far you will stray from the infallible, authoritative Word of God. The more you stray, the more you will ensnare yourself in your own lies and wonky logic. You already disagree with Peter and Jesus and Paul. Peter told the Jews that THEY killed Jesus.


It is about your illogical arguments and assumptions. I do not stray as you try to prove with your false premises. On the contrary I am in agreement with Peter about the Jewish religious authorities.

You should be physically exhausted swinging that bat you whiff with every time you step into the batter's box.
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity. Padre Pio, mystic


The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe. Dr. Ian Stevenson, University of Virginia’s School of Medicine, Division of Perceptual Studies

Last edited by Show Me the Wire : Today at 08:21 PM.
Show Me the Wire is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old Today, 08:44 PM   #14330
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,910
vCash: 400
boxcar,

Since you agree with Luther that God causes man to sin, why do you profess Sola Scriptura when you disagree with Scripture? No wonder Thask is confused.

Did you know Scripture teaches God does not cause man to sin?

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. James 1:13
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity. Padre Pio, mystic


The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe. Dr. Ian Stevenson, University of Virginia’s School of Medicine, Division of Perceptual Studies
Show Me the Wire is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old Today, 09:07 PM   #14331
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,910
vCash: 400
Quote:
Then why would God need to allow it since Judas pre-allowed God's allowing? Besides...God could have protected Judas just as he protected Sarah from Abimelech, but He chose NOT to. Hmm.


non sequitur to the original question about Judas being in control of his faculties.

God allowed Satan to possess Judas! (Now talk about someone being "controlled" by another entity!) So, is Judas guilty of betraying Christ or did the devil make him do it, since God granted Satan that power? Can Judas really be accountable since it appears he wasn't in control of his faculties?
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity. Padre Pio, mystic


The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe. Dr. Ian Stevenson, University of Virginia’s School of Medicine, Division of Perceptual Studies
Show Me the Wire is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old Today, 09:45 PM   #14332
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,910
vCash: 400
Quote:
Then why would God need to allow it since Judas pre-allowed God's allowing? Besides...God could have protected Judas just as he protected Sarah from Abimelech, but He chose NOT to. Hmm.



Quote:
Also, I'm curious: Did Job suffer at the hands of the evil one because he allowed Satan to inflict him or because God granted Satan that power? Did Satan go to Peter to ask him for permission to sift him as wheat or did Satan seek God's permission? You might wanna rethink your Judas answer...Just sayin'.


Are you curious, because you don't understand Scripture and that is why you believe God causes man to sin? No wonder you don't understand why God didn't protect Judas.

Job and Judas have different situations. Scripture plainly states Judas gave into temptation. (John 13:2), while Job was not tempted but attacked by satan. God allowed satan's attack to test if Job would curse God, like other men, if God withdrew God's protection from Job.

Two different situations. One man gave into into temptation and another was targeted by satan due to God's protection of an upright and blameless man. God allows satan to act as a test of man's love for God, not to induce sin (Job).

God does not cause man to sin (John 13:2), as you believe, but allows testing, which may result in man sinning. Man is responsible for his acquiescence with satan's temptations. When man fails the test and is induced by satan, man gives authority over him to satan. This is what Judas did so God did not protect Judas, especially since Jesus taught the apostles by example how to defeat satan's temptations. Judas did not learn his lesson. Understand now?

God does not cause sin, so I don't have to rethink my answer. You need to rethink your errors in your interpretations.

p.s. Always happy to help a lost Christian.
__________________
To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity. Padre Pio, mystic


The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe. Dr. Ian Stevenson, University of Virginia’s School of Medicine, Division of Perceptual Studies

Last edited by Show Me the Wire : Today at 09:56 PM.
Show Me the Wire is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:05 PM.



Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1999 - 2013 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved -- Best Viewed @ 1024x768 Resolution Or Higher