View Poll Results: Who wins HOY? Accelerate or Justify?
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Accelerate wins HOY
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119 |
42.35% |
Justify wins HOY
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162 |
57.65% |
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01-16-2019, 12:28 AM
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#466
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Didn't Accelerate win 5 G1s, the 4 SoCal races and the BC?
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You're right, but as my post was simply a case of "popping off" I hope I can be forgiven.
I see now how winning the Awesome Again--with its 8-year history as a dirt Grade 1--can push a horse into the realms of greatness...
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01-16-2019, 12:56 AM
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#467
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
Talk about splitting hairs... We're supposed to be mind readers on what you think are the "biggest" Grade 1 routes are for older horses? There's absolutely nothing "deliberate" about your vague terminology.
The Whitney? The Stephen Foster? The Woodward? The Jockey Club Gold Cup? don't qualify? Who knew?
But I suppose it suits your purpose of being able to change the goal posts at will such that Accelerate can be mentioned in the same breath with Cigar over the likes of Skip Away, Curlin, Mineshaft, Ghostzapper, etc.
And the whole premise of your post was silly to begin with. Yeah that ancient 28-year saga of the Pac Classic and all those horses that came from far and wide to run in some conveniently made up (after the fact) handicap superfecta in California over the course of 9-months really stacks up well to a 100+ year historical triple of classic races run in a 5-week span that has been the pinnacle of the sport since the interwar period of the 20th century.
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HOLY WHAM Batman.
Imagine saying that "TAKE THAT" mouthful. I had to take a huge inhale after just reading it.
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01-16-2019, 04:10 AM
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#468
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
Talk about splitting hairs... We're supposed to be mind readers on what you think are the "biggest" Grade 1 routes are for older horses? There's absolutely nothing "deliberate" about your vague terminology.
The Whitney? The Stephen Foster? The Woodward? The Jockey Club Gold Cup? don't qualify? Who knew?
But I suppose it suits your purpose of being able to change the goal posts at will such that Accelerate can be mentioned in the same breath with Cigar over the likes of Skip Away, Curlin, Mineshaft, Ghostzapper, etc.
And the whole premise of your post was silly to begin with. Yeah that ancient 28-year saga of the Pac Classic and all those horses that came from far and wide to run in some conveniently made up (after the fact) handicap superfecta in California over the course of 9-months really stacks up well to a 100+ year historical triple of classic races run in a 5-week span that has been the pinnacle of the sport since the interwar period of the 20th century.
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The Stephen Foster isn't much older than the Pacific Classic, Spalding. And the handicap trifecta in California has been talked about since Best Pal almost 30 years ago.
Look, if you don't like California's major handicap division races, that's your problem. How many horses have gone Whitney-Woodward-JCGC-BC Classic? I conceded that's basically equivalent
What you are trying to do us denigrate an enormous accomplishment by reducing it to "Grade I's", thereby including less important races.
Accelerate has had one of the best years in the handicap division in decades, sweeping a bunch of really important races. And it's just sad that you can't acknowledge that. That makes you look small, not the horse.
Last edited by dilanesp; 01-16-2019 at 04:13 AM.
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01-16-2019, 04:12 AM
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#469
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
You're right, but as my post was simply a case of "popping off" I hope I can be forgiven.
I see now how winning the Awesome Again--with its 8-year history as a dirt Grade 1--can push a horse into the realms of greatness...
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This is a classic example of you having it both ways.
I deliberately did not count the Awesome Again, because I am consistent. You count every Grade I in your post but this one.
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01-16-2019, 07:55 AM
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#470
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Just Deplorable
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lebanon, Ohio
Posts: 8,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultracapper
HOLY WHAM Batman.
Imagine saying that "TAKE THAT" mouthful. I had to take a huge inhale after just reading it.
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Seems to me he delivered a similar beatdown that should have ended it 20 pages ago. And it's still going on.
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01-16-2019, 08:26 AM
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#471
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
You're right, but as my post was simply a case of "popping off" I hope I can be forgiven.
I see now how winning the Awesome Again--with its 8-year history as a dirt Grade 1--can push a horse into the realms of greatness...
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I certainly wasn't trying to be that gotcha guy, just thought I remembered the Awesome Again being a G1 now. I wasn't even sure if the Gold Cup was still a G1 to be honest.
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01-16-2019, 08:34 AM
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#472
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rastajenk
Seems to me he delivered a similar beatdown that should have ended it 20 pages ago. And it's still going on.
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To be honest, while I can at least understand the argument for Accelerate (the fastest older horse should always be Horse of the Year, I guess, no matter what), with Spalding arguing one side and dilane the other it's like Secretariat vs. a 5K claimer.
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01-16-2019, 08:40 AM
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#473
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
The Stephen Foster isn't much older than the Pacific Classic, Spalding.
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Did I compare the Stephen Foster to the Pacific Classic beyond them both being Grade 1s? Did I mention some made up Kentucky Handicap Triple that included the Stephen Foster (with the Ben Ali and Clark or something) that no one targets?
Skipped over the major NY races, too. Good work.
Quote:
And the handicap trifecta in California has been talked about since Best Pal almost 30 years ago.
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This is a bit revisionist. While CA horsemen were surely aware that there was finally a major older horse race at each of the 3 SoCal tracks in 1991, there was hardly any push for some sort of official "triple". It barely registered with turf writers when Lava Man turned the trick in 2006. This "rare" event next took place in 2013 and now again in 2018.
Where was all the fanfare?
Quote:
Look, if you don't like California's major handicap division races, that's your problem. How many horses have gone Whitney-Woodward-JCGC-BC Classic? I conceded that's basically equivalent
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Why is that equivalent?
How is running in 4 Grade 1 races between early August and early November the same as running in 4 Grade 1 races between early March and early November?
Most trainers nowadays would lose their lunch at the thought of the former schedule...
Quote:
What you are trying to do us denigrate an enormous accomplishment by reducing it to "Grade I's", thereby including less important races.
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You just make up stuff right and left. How am I "denigrating" these CA Grade 1s by suggesting that other Grade 1s are important?
And I won't even bother to get into the very real concern that the Big Cap and the Gold Cup are but a hair's breath each away from being downgraded to Grade II.
Quote:
Accelerate has had one of the best years in the handicap division in decades, sweeping a bunch of really important races. And it's just sad that you can't acknowledge that. That makes you look small, not the horse.
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This is a joke. I didn't say Accelerate didn't have a good year. I just don't agree with your lopsided insistence that his year stands out amongst several other strong older horses in these decades that you seem to dismiss out of hand.
I don't know about any 6 Month Long Southern California Handicap Triple, but you certainly are the winner of the Pace Advantage Straw Man Argument Trifecta with this post (however, your performance hasn't blotted out the thousands of winners from decades past)...
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01-16-2019, 08:57 AM
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#474
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
This is a classic example of you having it both ways.
I deliberately did not count the Awesome Again, because I am consistent.
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Huh?
No one knows what you "deliberately" counted...you didn't let anyone in on what you were thinking in your initial post.
If you spelled it out somewhere deep in this 30+ page thread, I apologize...but you should have provided a link so that others could figure out what you were talking about...
As for my flub regarding the Awesome Again goes, yeah that looks bad I suppose. I didn't do it on purpose and...
Quote:
You count every Grade I in your post but this one.
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...I also missed that Saint Liam won another Grade 1 in 2005. He actually won 4, not 3.
Neutrality restored.
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01-16-2019, 02:23 PM
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#475
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,610
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I'm not buying the official grade designations any more than I'm buying that any one set of speed figures has a monopoly on accuracy or methodology when it comes to trying to measure how well a horse ran.
There's a formal process for assigning grades, but purses, crop strength, and other factors vary from year to year and the grades assigned use trailing information.
IMO, Accelerate had an outstanding year winning 5 Grade, 1s including some of the most prestigious races for older horses in the country, but the older crop this year and the fields he ran against don't stack up with some of the fields of the past anymore than this 3yo crop looks like a great one. He wasn't beating legit Grade 1 fields in some of those races.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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01-16-2019, 03:16 PM
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#476
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaway01
To be honest, while I can at least understand the argument for Accelerate (the fastest older horse should always be Horse of the Year, I guess, no matter what), with Spalding arguing one side and dilane the other it's like Secretariat vs. a 5K claimer.
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If you think of it that way, your handicapping skills are off.
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01-16-2019, 03:54 PM
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#477
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
If you think of it that way, your handicapping skills are off.
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He was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
$5K maiden claimer.
Feel better now?
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01-16-2019, 04:52 PM
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#478
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
He was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
$5K maiden claimer.
Feel better now?
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I know Andy, I try to be nice and that's what it gets me...
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01-17-2019, 12:45 PM
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#479
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
He was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
$5K maiden claimer.
Feel better now?
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I love you too, Andy.
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01-24-2019, 09:44 PM
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#480
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 5,870
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I was wrong, was a bigger landslide than I thought, 77% of the votes.
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