Keeneland apparently raising takeout

[cj]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

A surprisingly high number of my posts here have dealt with getting horseplayers "together"...so we could act in our own self-interest...just like the OTHER entities in this game do. OF COURSE, I'd be willing to help in organizing a boycott...but it should happen whether HANA calls for it or NOT.

Exactly. I don't need anyone to tell me what to do. I'm not playing Keeneland this year. End of story.

[lamboguy]

horse racing is a gambling business. without gamblers betting at those things there is no business.

just from experience i watched the joints in Vegas belly up in the 70's when the gamblers stopped coming there, why? because they were fleeced and cheted out of their money. they had to close the doors and rebuild that vagabond town.

the place is run by cheap suits today and does very well because they don't allow cheating in their places. in case someone comes up with a trick they figure them out right away. they don't throw dealers at their customers that can deal seconds any more. if a customer is lucky enough to walk out with a score the corporations look at it as good advertisement to get their friends into the casino to take their chances.

horse racing no different. the game has some slick operator's in it that are able to stay one step ahead of getting caught. the game has people that can tamper with the sanctity of a pari mutuel wagering pool.

these dastardly dead's are not to hard to stop, but must be done.

but what do the racetracks do? they raise the host fees. dumb dumb and more dumb.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Right on!

But, it can't be done effectively without them. Their press releases will be carried by most news outlets whereas an unofficial release will be ignored. It's about getting people fired up enough to tell their friends.

I've seen the press releases...and I've seen the industry's reaction to them. HANA takes credit for the sagging mutuel handle which they attribute to the "organize boycott"...and then the industry leaders respond by downplaying the boycott's affect...while noting other contributing causes for the declining wagering numbers. Much ado about nothing...IMO.

First...the serious horseplayer has to look at himself in the mirror...and make up his mind that he needs to ACT when someone is taking advantage of him. With so many tracks to choose from...how much "willpower" does it take to boycott a single track...in order to prove that you are a force to be reckoned with? If enough horseplayers send out a loud message to Keeneland...it will for sure have a far-reaching effect.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I've seen the press releases...and I've seen the industry's reaction to them. HANA takes credit for the sagging mutuel handle which they attribute to the "organize boycott"...and then the industry leaders respond by downplaying the boycott's affect...while noting other contributing causes for the declining wagering numbers. Much ado about nothing...IMO.

First...the serious horseplayer has to look at himself in the mirror...and make up his mind that he needs to ACT when someone is taking advantage of him. With so many tracks to choose from...how much "willpower" does it take to boycott a single track...in order to prove that you are a force to be reckoned with. If the horseplayer sends a loud message to Keeneland...it will for sure have a far-reaching effect.

Ok, but other than regular/hardcore gamblers most people aren't aware of it. They can't boycott if they aren't aware.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Ok, but other than regular/hardcore gamblers most people aren't aware of it. They can't boycott if they aren't aware.

Gambling boycotts aren't measured by the sheer number of the protesters...this isn't a "mob demonstration". In gambling...the effect is measured by the WAGERING DOLLARS that are involved. Get the "regular/hardcore gambler" involved...and don't worry about the "frivolous bettor". One hardcore bettor wagers more than a hundred "frivolous hobbyists".

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Gambling boycotts aren't measured by the sheer number of the protesters...this isn't a "mob demonstration". In gambling...the effect is measured by the WAGERING DOLLARS that are involved. Get the "regular/hardcore gambler" involved...and don't worry about the "frivolous bettor". One hardcore bettor wagers more than a hundred "frivolous hobbyists".

The first shot should be at Equestricon. I would urge all Customers/Gamblers without industry jobs (who really have to go) to not attend based on Keenelands actions. This will get a lot of publicity. If they go and speak on the panel saying things that have been said hundreds of times before the Industry will patronize them saying "We should listen to our Customers". This is about creating a sh*t storm of negative publicity IMO

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Ok, but other than regular/hardcore gamblers most people aren't aware of it. They can't boycott if they aren't aware.

I agree.

It's one thing for an individual horse player to get sick and tired of high takeouts and decide to leave the game or stop wagering at a specific track. That's a slow trickle that can't be separated out from all sorts of other reasons handle might be declining.

It's another thing to make a broad effort to boycott a specific track for a specific period of time where the impact will be concentrated and significant enough that everyone will know a message is being sent.

Earlier in the thread I suggested using Twitter and other social media on top of anything HANA can do. I spend 10-20 minutes a week on my horse racing Twitter account and I have hundreds of followers. There are serious horse players that spend a LOT of time on Twitter that have many thousands. If everyone is sending out that boycott message with a schedule and retweeting it to their followers we'll be able get the message out to 10s of thousands if not 100k higher handle players. If everyone then follows through and boycotts on those dates, it WILL be noticed.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

..... It's about getting people fired up enough to tell their friends.

Therein lies the problem. If people are so stupid that they have to be told that there is a problem and that they must act, then there is no hope for success.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I agree.

It's one thing for an individual horse player to get sick and tired of high takeouts and decide to leave the game or stop wagering at a specific track. That's a slow trickle that can't be separated out from all sorts of other reasons handle might be declining.

It's another thing to make a broad effort to boycott a specific track for a specific period of time where the impact will be concentrated and significant enough that everyone will know a message is being sent.

Earlier in the thread I suggested using Twitter and other social media on top of anything HANA can do. I spend 10-20 minutes a week on my horse racing Twitter account and I have hundreds of followers. There are serious horse players that spend a LOT of time on Twitter that have many thousands. If everyone is sending out that boycott message with a schedule and retweeting it to their followers we'll be able get the message out to 10s of thousands if not 100k higher handle players. If everyone then follows through and boycotts on those dates, it WILL be noticed.

At the OTB that I frequent...ONE GUY there bets more than what the other 20+ people there bet combined. If that guy decides to stay home one day...the manager of the place calls him on the phone, to make sure that he is okay (I'm not kidding). If that "one guy" decides to boycott that OTB...isn't that enough of a "message"?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Therein lies the problem. If people are so stupid that they have to be told that there is a problem and that they must act, then there is no hope for success.

Even if people know, they all have to act at the same time and at the same location so the impact is great enough.

We can't have some people boycotting weekends, some boycotting weekdays, some boycotting CA, others boycotting KY etc... It has to be broad, targeted, and specific so it leaves no doubt about what message is being sent.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

At the OTB that I frequent...ONE GUY there bets more than what the other 20+ people there bet combined. If that guy decides to stay home one day...the manager of the place calls him on the phone, to make sure that he is okay (I'm not kidding). If that "one guy" decides to boycott that OTB...isn't that enough of a "message"?

I've seen the same exact thing at NYC OTB.

I agree that getting whales and larger bettors is WAY better than getting rank and file players, but contacting the Blue Whales may be problematical unless someone has a direct line. I don't, but perhaps someone else does. In the mean time if 5K-10k people like me, you, etc.. don't bet Keeneland that's a LOT of money too.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Even if people know, they all have to act at the same time and at the same location so the impact is great enough.

We can't have some people boycotting weekends, some boycotting weekdays, some boycotting CA, others boycotting KY etc... It has to be broad, targeted, and specific so it leaves no doubt about what message is being sent.

I don't treat horse betting as some sort of life saving medicine I need to take, so if I am getting a bad deal I simply don't play, and I haven't for 3 1/2 years.

I think there are a lot of messages already being sent. The horsemen have made it clear that their costs are skyrocketing and they need bigger purses just to keep their losses to a minimum. They are being depicted as greedy when all they are trying to do is survive. The bettors are rightly or wrongly viewed as being customers of entertainment and if the cost of the entertainment goes up they will be the ones paying the freight.

[cj]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I've seen the same exact thing at NYC OTB.

I agree that getting whales and larger bettors is WAY better than getting rank and file players, but contacting the Blue Whales may be problematical unless someone has a direct line. I don't, but perhaps someone else does. In the mean time if 5K-10k people like me, you, etc.. don't bet Keeneland that's a LOT of money too.

With the continued rise of host fees, the big bettors are going to know as their rebate schedule changes. If they are getting special deals, like is rumored at a certain track in a state that is a peninsula, that is a different story.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by AndyC

I don't treat horse betting as some sort of life saving medicine I need to take, so if I am getting a bad deal I simply don't play, and I haven't for 3 1/2 years.

I think there are a lot of messages already being sent. The horsemen have made it clear that their costs are skyrocketing and they need bigger purses just to keep their losses to a minimum. They are being depicted as greedy when all they are trying to do is survive. The bettors are rightly or wrongly viewed as being customers of entertainment and if the cost of the entertainment goes up they will be the ones paying the freight.

The horseplayers aren't guaranteed a profit -- much less a "living" -- in this game...so, why should the HORSEMEN? If the horseman's operating costs are "skyrocketing", then why isn't he looking for something else to do with his time...just as he advises the whining HORSEPLAYER to do? Who assured the horseman that horse racing is an "entertainment venue" for US...but a "living" for HIM?

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by AndyC

The horsemen have made it clear that their costs are skyrocketing and they need bigger purses just to keep their losses to a minimum. They are being depicted as greedy when all they are trying to do is survive.

Well, when costs for the latest undetectable drug keep going up, of course their costs are skyrocketing.....Unable to afford said drugs and stay competitive, another small training outfit bites the dust, leaving the Big Boys with an ever growing monopoly and leverage they fully exert upon track management.