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Old 08-16-2022, 02:37 PM   #31
westernmassbob
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So flipping in the gate should be actionable by stewards?
Well in some cases it has. If the gate opens and a horse flips in gate and doesn’t have a fair start stewards have made decisions to declare horses as non starters.
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Old 08-16-2022, 02:57 PM   #32
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Well in some cases it has. If the gate opens and a horse flips in gate and doesn’t have a fair start stewards have made decisions to declare horses as non starters.
Oh I see, so a jockey should get days if the horse flips in the gate or is held by the gate crew?
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:10 PM   #33
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Oh I see, so a jockey should get days if the horse flips in the gate or is held by the gate crew?
Nah man you are so confused. It doesn’t have to be a jockeys fault for accidents to happen or a steward to review one. I’ve seen gate breaks where a jockey had zero control of the horse and was taken down for interference. I think you are confusing the type of accidents and what causes them.
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:14 PM   #34
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Nah man you are so confused. It doesn’t have to be a jockeys fault for accidents to happen or a steward to review one. I’ve seen gate breaks where a jockey had zero control of the horse and was taken down for interference. I think you are confusing the type of accidents and what causes them.
Isn't this thread about jocks wiping out half the field at the break?

I don't think I'm confused, I think I'm trying to stay on topic.
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:26 PM   #35
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People who don't think suspensions are a deterrent are wrong. Getting a three day suspension is a VERY big deal. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Not only no money for three days. Most horses you lose to other riders are gone for more than just one race. Especially if the horse wins. Very unlikely they'll take the new pilot off for the next few starts.
I completely disagree with this view in 2022. If you are a top rider who rides frequency for a super trainer in NY, CA or KY you will be just fine even if you get a suspension or two.

Several jocks in NY and KY (including 2nd and 3rd tier riders) make double or triple the amount of money they would have 10-15 year ago due to the inflated purses.
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:29 PM   #36
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Isn't this thread about jocks wiping out half the field at the break?

I don't think I'm confused, I think I'm trying to stay on topic.
Yup your confused. The topic clearly states “ NYRA Stewards”

Of course just like every thread on here it branches off into different topics. It’s ok though. Clearly there is lots to learn.
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:34 PM   #37
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I completely disagree with this view in 2022. If you are a top rider who rides frequency for a super trainer in NY, CA or KY you will be just fine even if you get a suspension or two.

Several jocks in NY and KY (including 2nd and 3rd tier riders) make double or triple the amount of money they would have 10-15 year ago due to the inflated purses.
Good point. Great trainers and jockeys go hand in hand. They don’t want to upset each other’s Apple cart even if there is a blip or two in regards to suspensions or urgent family matters. IDC what the reason is ...if you miss a mount but you regularly ride for said top trainer and horse you get that mount back when you come back. There would be huge animosity issues otherwise. It probably has happened though.
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Old 08-16-2022, 04:06 PM   #38
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Yup your confused. The topic clearly states “ NYRA Stewards”
It should say "obsessed with the best, obviously"
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Old 08-16-2022, 08:51 PM   #39
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I 100% agree with this during the race however at the gate break not so much. We have seen many times when a horse breaks it can take a right or left hand turn causing massive collisions. There is no way I believe this to be intentional on a jockeys behalf to gain a tactical edge. IMO the gate break is the most dangerous park of a horse race. Horses clip heels, fall down and run erratic more so at the break then any other time during a race. We will just have to agree to disagree that a jockey at that moment would intentionally create a foul to get a “ tactical “edge.
I'm not suggesting it's something that happens commonly.

I am saying extremely talented jocks are capable of gaining tactical edges in scenarios where less talented riders cannot.

Stewards have a saying they tell jocks. " first jump yours 2nd jump ours"

If a horse is going to break inward or outward dramatically there's not much a jock can do. Stewards watch for how quickly they correct.

Another fine line that great riders toe is setting traps for less experienced jocks.

They can make it "appear" there's a hole or a way through that will in fact never work.

Jocks will sometimes take the bait and move into a spot they shouldn't. One of a myriad of ways a great rider can exploit the weaknesses of guys with less talent or experience.
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Old 08-16-2022, 08:58 PM   #40
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Well in some cases it has. If the gate opens and a horse flips in gate and doesn’t have a fair start stewards have made decisions to declare horses as non starters.
The decision Stewards must make is very clear. If a horse flips in the gate they will ask two questions and only two questions.

1. Did the starting gate function properly? Can the horse flipping be blamed on a malfunction of the gate?

2. Was there any human error involved? This can happen in a few ways. By far the most common is did the assistant starter release the bridle in such a manner as to allow for a fair start?

If the answer to those two questions is YES.

A horse will NOT be declared a NON STARTER.
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Old 08-16-2022, 09:03 PM   #41
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I completely disagree with this view in 2022. If you are a top rider who rides frequency for a super trainer in NY, CA or KY you will be just fine even if you get a suspension or two.

Several jocks in NY and KY (including 2nd and 3rd tier riders) make double or triple the amount of money they would have 10-15 year ago due to the inflated purses.
Elite riders are riding for more and bigger purses than ever before. The depth of talented riders is vast.

Missing days is also much more expensive and damaging to business because of this prosperity.

Sure they'll be fine.

But believe me they HATE being suspended and how it affects their business!!
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Old 08-17-2022, 09:41 AM   #42
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I'm not suggesting it's something that happens commonly.

I am saying extremely talented jocks are capable of gaining tactical edges in scenarios where less talented riders cannot.

Stewards have a saying they tell jocks. " first jump yours 2nd jump ours"

If a horse is going to break inward or outward dramatically there's not much a jock can do. Stewards watch for how quickly they correct.

Another fine line that great riders toe is setting traps for less experienced jocks.

They can make it "appear" there's a hole or a way through that will in fact never work.

Jocks will sometimes take the bait and move into a spot they shouldn't. One of a myriad of ways a great rider can exploit the weaknesses of guys with less talent or experience.
I think there's truth to this, and honestly, I wouldn't want a sport that tried so minutely to adjudicate fouls that it took the strategic element of race-riding away. Some of the race-riding things Vic is talking about are a fascinating part of the sport, in the same way that ball fakes in basketball and zone blitzes in football are. I wouldn't want to see them go or all have to be adjudicated by the stewards.
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Old 08-17-2022, 12:21 PM   #43
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“I am saying extremely talented jocks are capable of gaining tactical edges in scenarios where less talented riders cannot.”


I would say give us some examples please. The way I see it is that all jockeys are not treated as equals. My example would be Irad Oritz. Irad is considered one of the best jockeys in the world. Clearly he is capable of gaining tactical edges throughout a race. Let’s be honest though. The same things he does to gain those advantages another lesser successful rider would be scrutinized for doing. Irad does his classic herding move to the rail. He takes away another horses/jockeys chances of winning by doing some unsavory and disrespectful type moves. Of course he will continue to do this because of his great success. Sadly though if other jockeys try this there is always a different outcome. So in my opinion Irad has what I would call “ Jockey Privilege”.
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Old 08-17-2022, 12:32 PM   #44
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I think there's truth to this, and honestly, I wouldn't want a sport that tried so minutely to adjudicate fouls that it took the strategic element of race-riding away. Some of the race-riding things Vic is talking about are a fascinating part of the sport, in the same way that ball fakes in basketball and zone blitzes in football are. I wouldn't want to see them go or all have to be adjudicated by the stewards.
I don't think Stewards are adjudicating race riding tactics. In fact we may point out instances to a greener rider who takes the bait to be more cautious.

If you ever happen to be in the Stewards stand you'll hear them shouting the same thing every few races. " In or out jock. Get in or out"

I sometimes even say it in race calls.

Stewards get VERY nervous when they see a "bad formation" about to materialize. You can see it coming before it actually happens.

Elite riders can sense this too and will "take the pressure" off. Sometimes Stewards who see that will call down to the room to praise and thank the rider who gave another rider a "shot" rather than forcing him to stay in a spot he should never have gotten in to.

So much goes on out there that's only obvious to other riders and the trained eye of the stewards.

I love talking to riders and listening to them speak of the nuances of what's happening on the track. I've learned a ton by listening to jocks analyze films. Jermaine Bridgmohan and Tyler Baze are especially good at that.

I once asked Laffit about being afraid out there.

He said I'm only afraid of one thing..." A rider that's NEVER afraid"
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Old 09-18-2022, 12:10 PM   #45
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Irad nearly dropped Luis Saez down the backstretch in the 11th at Aqueduct yesterday

of course the stewards did nothing other than taking a look at it for a few minutes and will probably let Irad skate away again
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