Religious

[Wagergirl]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I just want us to start having a meaningful, somewhat structured debate going...so we can give the topic of "spirituality" the respect that it deserves.

I agree with you Thaskalos, I think if we can all agree to treat each other,even with just a smidge, with respect that this thread really could be educational and enlightening. I have enjoyed reading about Eastern Religions. I would be more likely to ask questions.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

What bothers me is the fact that he doesn't directly answer questions that are put to him...choosing instead to just supply us with written scripture --

Because he is incapable and scared. His religious indoctrination precludes freethinking. One single misstep/contradiction would destroy his world.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm far from in the business of defending Boxcar and in particularly those things that revolve around his religiousness (I am of course "godless" according to Him). But, I do hear a lot of people that criticize him for not having his own perspective (or whatever) and relying on scripture as an answer to everything in this forum (heck, I'm one of them, its one of the reasons why I've sort of given up on most exchanges with him).

But then again, when he does come with some perspective or opinion, usually in a thread that wouldn't seem to have anything to do with religion, his often brazen statements are challenged as being an affront to his religion - as though he's being trapped as a hypocrit for a thought that would seem to contradict his beliefs - at which point he is forced to then justify his opinion based on some scripture.

I mean - I get it - but sometimes people want it both ways with Boxcar. You can't jump him for always relying on scripture and then back him into a corner at every opportunity and force him to dream up some hokey explanation for a thought that would seem to contradict his religiousness.

[PaceAdvantage]

Look, I respect Boxcar in that he is steadfast in his beliefs, and his faith is unshakable...plus he is well versed in those beliefs and more than capable of defending them from his particular angle.

It's just that anyone perceived by him to not be in his corner 100% will make it virtually impossible to have a discussion about religion with him...or politics for that matter, now that I think about it...

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Hcap: Let me ask how does faith and works apply in Zen Buddhism?

Originally Posted by thaskalos

What bothers me is the fact that he doesn't directly answer questions that are put to him...choosing instead to just supply us with written scripture -- which is the cause of our disagreement in the first place.

I don't want to see him just quoting scripture, because I have read this scripture myself!

I want to see him answer the questions that are asked of him...from HIS perspective.

I will try to answer this within my own scope of understanding.

Bodhisattva again

The ideal of the Bodhisattva, is to work for the spiritual benefit of other sentient beings ultimately from the genuine compassion experienced towards those beings. In Zen faith is best developed thru' the practical approach that primes the pump of understanding

In the more mainstream schools of Buddhism of whicjh I know less, first the study or the "hearing" of Dharma and then the student follows the Dharma teachings. Faith is primarily faith in the Buddha himself as the teacher of spiritual truth. Christianity-like

But there is a very important distinction between Zen and mainstream Buddhism. Zen reminds us that Buddha himself warns against basing ones faith upon authority, tradition or overly intellectual reasoning. Faith is by the doing. As it is in many mystical approaches.

A Zen sage

"If You Meet the Buddha on the Road,Kill Him!"

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

This thread is going to end up being the longest thread in the history of this site...and we still don't understand each other -- and our religious beliefs, if any.

What do you say we all put aside the sarcastic remarks and the insincere inquiries, and try to have a nice and honest conversation...where we can ask each other sincere questions...and, in turn, provide some meaningful answers?.......................................... ....


I just want us to start having a meaningful, somewhat structured debate going...so we can give the topic of "spirituality" the respect that it deserves.

Your suggestion is sincere thaskalos but if we didn't learn to "play nicely children" from Kindergarten on , it ain't going to happen now.

Yes. This thread could end up being the longest in the history of this site.

That shouldn't bother anyone, as the real reason behind it is to try to come to some understanding of perhaps the greatest mystery in the Universe.

That would be: "Is there life after death?"

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Look, I respect Boxcar in that he is steadfast in his beliefs, and his faith is unshakable...plus he is well versed in those beliefs and more than capable of defending them from his particular angle.

I find that odd in that he obviously doesn't respect you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by TJDave

I find that odd in that he obviously doesn't respect you.

I am able to look beyond that...my respect for him lies in his devotion, not in his actions towards me.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You missed this. I did say......

"Traditionally, a Bodhisattva is anyone who, motivated by great compassion, has generated bodhicitta, which is a spontaneous wish to attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings"

And does this "great compassion" extend to Bodhisattva's enemies. To those who hate him?

Also one who has reached nirvana and returns to help others.

Even his enemies?

But box you are missing the mark again. The most important "doctrine" and I hate to use that word, in all religions, Buddhism and Christianity included is Metanoia. Transformation; born again; the caterpillar into a butterfly. Change of Mind

And whether or not Buddhism accepts an eternal deity and Judeo-Christian thought does, is really a map versus the territory issue. Words fail to adequately decipher either religion.

Yes, but what you are missing is HOW is one born again? Many different ways to rebirth? One way? Any ol' way? Tell me: When you were born, did you will yourself to be born? Tell me: What part did you play in your birth? If nothing, then what makes you think that you can will yourself to be "born again"? That you can just follow a whole set of prescribed procedures to transform yourself from Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jekyll? Wasn't Jesus' teaching exceedingly clear in this matter?

Scripture employs numerous metaphors, and the metaphors are designed to draw parallels between temporal reality and spiritual reality. If only you could understand this! If only you would understand and accept the fact that temporal reality is but an image of spiritual reality. Or temporal reality is but a shadow cast by the light of spiritual reality. Or that the [temporal] things seen proceed from the eternal things unseen. This is precisely why so many metaphorical figures are used in scripture. God intends for us to draw the analogy or the parallels between both realities.

Many things in the Word of God are very simple to understand, yet at the same time it is this simplicity that makes the truth so deeply profound, and it is this profundity that reaches to the deepest recesses of our heart and stirs the soul to cry out to its Creator. Consider Jesus' description of HOW a man is born again. Note carefully, please, the analogy Jesus employs from nature -- something which which he very often did to drive home the point to a spiritual truth:

John 3:2-7
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NASB

Okay...Jesus is starting to make the analogy at this point He's starting to compare two different kinds of birth. There is the natural birth (born of the water, born of the flesh) -- a birth by a woman, and then there is spiritual birth -- a birth by the Spirit. Let's continue with the passage:

John 3:7-13
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and you do not receive our witness. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
NASB

I just asked earlier, did you have anything to do with you natural birth? Jesus in v. 8 is telling Nicodemus that neither does he have anything to do with his spiritual birth. The Holy Spirit is likened to wind (again, Jesus drawing upon temporal reality to make a spiritual point). Just as we don't control the wind, just as we don't determine where the wind is going to blow or from whence it will blow, then neither do we exercise any control over our spiritual birth.

In v.9, we see that Nicodemus is still confused! He still doesn't get it! Jesus, now, begins to chide him at this point. And look how Jesus answers him -- by pointing to the very obvious -- to that which should be very self-evident, but not so in Nicodemus' blindness. Remember what Jesus also got done saying -- that one cannot see (understand or perceive) the kingdom of God (spiritual truth) unless one is born again! So, Jesus points Nicodemus to his analogy by telling him -- Hey, Nick, I just told you something very earthly and natural and you still don't get it. I just compared the spiritual birth to a natural birth. I just got done telling you that earthly things are but reflections of spiritual things! What you should understand from the earthly things is that just as you didn't have any control over your natural birth, no more than you have control over the wind (another earthly truth!), therefore, neither do you have any control over your spiritual birth. i.e. you're pretty darn helpless! Wake up! Smell the coffee! Learn spiritual truth from nature! My seen creation is a reflection of unseen, eternal spiritual realities!

Other scriptures indicate that eventually Nicodemus came to know the Lord, but during this particular encounter, he probably walked away scratching his head. He left, not as a believer at this point in time, in all probability.

And if you think Jesus' analogy, using "earthly things", is all wrong and that I'm not understanding Him rightly, then you should contemplate this passage:

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
NASB

Isn't this what Jesus taught about the "wind" -- that the "wind" (Spirit of God) blows where IT WISHES.

So, yes, there is commonality, okay, among various religions, but there are numerous stark differences also -- as different as the day is from the night -- that separates Christianity from all the rest. Buddhism may have this general concept of a "new birth" -- but the means is radically different from what the bible teaches. Buddhism at the end of the day is a Self-Help philosophy or religion. It's Home Depot style Do-it-Yourself approach to reformation. Christianity, on the other hand, calls for faith in the Creator to do for us what we must do -- yet, cannot do for ourselves. Feel the tension? See the dilemma?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

What you ask is impossible if Boxcar is to be involved. That's because he has absolutely no respect for anyone whom he thinks isn't on the exact same page as he is.

Note how he addresses overlay and SMTW (to a lesser extent), and how he addresses everyone else. If you're not 100% with him, then you are against him, and he will treat you as such.

The difference between the Overlays and Show Mes of the world is that they are, generally, constrained to be intellectually honest. Christians tend to feel the force of that moral imperative within our souls, thanks to the presence of the Holy Spirit. Non-Christians, however, generally don't feel compelled to be intellectually honest. Just telling you the way it is. It's no wonder the bible says that "all men are liars". Or "let God be true and every man a liar".

Having said this, however, I must say that I have had numerous conservations with professing Christians, also, wherein this "moral imperative" seemed to be lacking. It is usually lacking, with either group, when one only wants to defend or propagate a particular viewpoint. At that point, honest dialogue is impossible to have because at least one mind is closed. Honest dialogue requires an openess.

Is my mind "closed" to other philosophies and religions? You bet! Just as most people's are! We all operate believing in something and we all approach our worldview with a set of assumptions. And the reason that no one has ever been able to sway me is because their belief system is usually self-defeating and, therefore, not intellectually appealing to me. Whatever I take in, it must pass through the filters of my mind and my critical analysis. If it can make it past that, then it travels down to the next level, i.e. the heart. And that is where my Christianity is: It is in the heart! And this is why I can defend the faith fairly well -- why I can explain what it is I believe and why I believe it. This is something very few people are able to do, with the exception of a mature Christian.

So, what Boxcar has no respect for is intellectual dishonesty, such as you and others have manifested in the past.

Boxcar

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

my respect for him lies in his devotion, not in his actions towards me.

Admirable...But...

The world is full of devoted people who hate other devoted people.

You sure there might not be another qualifier, like, the object of his devotion?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And does this "great compassion" extend to Bodhisattva's enemies. To those who hate him?

Even his enemies?

“Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love, overcoming evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth.” Dhammapada 1.5...

"It is easy enough to be friendly to one’s friends. But to befriend the one who regards himself as your enemy is the quintessence of true religion. The other is mere business.” -Mahatma Gandhi

'Compassion and love are not mere luxuries.
As the source both of inner and external peace,
they are fundamental to the continued survival of our species.'
His Holiness the XIV Dalai Lama

On Metanoia, rebirth change of mind you ask...

Yes, but what you are missing is HOW is one born again? Many different ways to rebirth? One way? Any ol' way? Tell me:

Box, thru' the years we have discussed these things. many times. I have given you detailed explanations as best as I could. I suggest before you once again try to "prove" the NT is superior in regards to Metanoia, you re-read my last post on the Ox/Bull paintings, visit the site I linked and re-read my take on Exodus as an allegorical internal story of how "separation of the wheat from the chaff" might be accomplished.

I doubt that you will stop beating us over the head with biblical passages and insisting that it's "either my way or the highway", but at least try to understand other ways and other people

[Show Me the Wire]

Okay hcap, fair enough. Let us move to the application of the faiths. Here is a hypothetical (which in this economy is real) a family you know of is in financial straights. The father lost his job and the family is struggling to put food on the table.

My faith requires my to help provide food to the family, even if the family does not ask for assistance.

From what I understand of your post, the Zen you practice would requires you to work for the spiritual benefit of other sentient beings and not to work in helping provide food or physical needs of the family in need.

Is that a correct summation of the works required by your belief (faith) Buddha is a teacher of spiritual truth?

[boxcar]

[QUOTE=GreyfoxYes. This thread could end up being the longest in the history of this site.[/quote]

Not if I can help it.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I know that...but that's not what bothers me.

What bothers me is the fact that he doesn't directly answer questions that are put to him...choosing instead to just supply us with written scripture -- which is the cause of our disagreement in the first place.

I don't want to see him just quoting scripture, because I have read this scripture myself!

I want to see him answer the questions that are asked of him...from HIS perspective.

But Thaksalos, my worldview is not Boxcar's! My worldview was provided to me by God, through the scriptures, and he gifted that to me when he caused me to be born again! Don't you realize what you're asking? You're asking me to suspend my Christian worldview so that I can answer you from a non-Christian world view -- the very perspective in which your questions are grounded!

For example, you asked me recently (by way of a complaint against God and his revelation) about how God could manifest his wrath against people and yet command his disciples to love our enemies. Now, how would I answer this if I didn't have knowledge of God's revelation? Isn't the singular purpose behind revelation to reveal things? To have the light of true knowledge replace dark ignorance? What you want me to do is grope around in the dark to come with an answer. You want me to suspend what God has made me to become what you are! And I'm not going do that! Your complaint clearly suggests to me that you perceive that I have an unfair advantage over you. That I'm not playing fairly, so now you want me to assume a handicap (let's call it the "wisdom of the world") to level out the proverbial playing field, putting us both on the same plane. Sorry, but that's not what I'm called to do.

Boxcar