It's on! The Official Boycott Keeneland Thread.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Afleet

his posts are written like he is inebriated

Good, was hoping it wasn't just me.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The tracks are selling a product. Most products have a 100% markup. What is racing's?

It's always interesting to me to hear gamblers grousing. I've yet to hear one, including Andy who apparently is quite involved in the details of these things, who has actually searched out the costs of running a track and made a thoughtful decision based on these facts. Driving a track out of business does you no good.

I learned the economics of movie theaters a long time ago. They get very little of ticket revenue, and it's the popcorn and drink sales that keep them afloat. I like my neighborhood theater, and so I splurge and buy popcorn and a drink instead of begrudging the cost because I hope they remain in business for my own entertainment.

For others, they'll support Mom and Pop stores instead of the megastores, even though they pay more, because they want the Mom and Pop to remain in business.

If a business is raking in the big bucks, and then wants to stick it to me at every turn, then it's those businesses I label as greedy and don't wish to give them my business (though sometimes I may want their product enough to do so anyway).

So, how does racing compare to others in what they make as way of "markup" on the product they sell? Are the tracks being greedy, and trying to stick it to you at every turn? I'd say that Churchill was greedy, and still is greedy, but I don't know that I think that of any other track.

And it just makes good old common sense to me that if lowering takeout really improves the tracks' bottom line then the tracks would be doing it.

If I could wave a magic wand and do one thing that I do think would increase the track's bottom line, which they could pass on to the handicappers, it'd be doing away with all ADWs except for ones that are track/industry owned. The percentage given away to ADWs is one that could be going to handicappers (or the track). This is why I only bet through Xpressbet when not on track.

It really isn't the problem of the customers what it costs to put on the show. Tracks are in the gambling business, and you put out a product that is a bad gamble, people are going to find something else to do. Fields are shrinking and takeout is going up. It is a deadly combination. That is why people have left the game in droves.

My suggestion would be to cut the cost of putting on the show. There is lots of stuff tracks are overspending on.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The tracks are selling a product. Most products have a 100% markup. What is racing's?

It depends on the product and industry. Costco marks up their products by no more than 14%, should we use them as the barometer?

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

It's always interesting to me to hear gamblers grousing. I've yet to hear one, including Andy who apparently is quite involved in the details of these things, who has actually searched out the costs of running a track and made a thoughtful decision based on these facts. Driving a track out of business does you no good.

Keeping a poorly-run losing business around helps nobody.

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I learned the economics of movie theaters a long time ago. They get very little of ticket revenue, and it's the popcorn and drink sales that keep them afloat. I like my neighborhood theater, and so I splurge and buy popcorn and a drink instead of begrudging the cost because I hope they remain in business for my own entertainment.

People act in their own best interests and racing is no different.

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

So, how does racing compare to others in what they make as way of "markup" on the product they sell? Are the tracks being greedy, and trying to stick it to you at every turn? I'd say that Churchill was greedy, and still is greedy, but I don't know that I think that of any other track.

And it just makes good old common sense to me that if lowering takeout really improves the tracks' bottom line then the tracks would be doing it.

A comparison would be other gambling businesses. How much do casinos make on each dollar bet? Far less than a racetrack. How about a sports book? 4-5% It isn't the bettors job to prop up businesses that are unable to compete although that's what bettors keep doing with racing. A good consumer allocates capital efficiently.

[JustRalph]

" A good consumer allocates capital efficiently........"

After all the bullshit i wrote..... this sums it up perfectly.

Hat tip AndyC

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by AndyC

It depends on the product and industry. Costco marks up their products by no more than 14%, should we use them as the barometer?



Keeping a poorly-run losing business around helps nobody.



People act in their own best interests and racing is no different.




A comparison would be other gambling businesses. How much do casinos make on each dollar bet? Far less than a racetrack. How about a sports book? 4-5% It isn't the bettors job to prop up businesses that are unable to compete although that's what bettors keep doing with racing. A good consumer allocates capital efficiently.

Casinos make most of their profit from things other than gambling, like hotel rooms, shows, drinks and food, etc., all things that one can only do by actually GOING to the casino. You guys want to bet from the comfort of your jammies at home on the computer, most of the time through ADWs that go to profit some third party more than the track/sport.

People act in their best interests and racing is no different. Alright then, the tracks are acting in their best interest by raising prices.

Handicappers want it all. They want to have a voice and a seat at the table, yet they don't give a damn (as you just stated) about the sport as a whole. Handicappers fuss about paying to park, or paying admission, or paying a high dollar on a big day, or paying for the program, or the price of the track food. So you rarely as a whole help the sport profit from all the aforementioned items, then fuss about the takeout on the funds you push thru some third party ADW. Handicappers probably have a bigger voice in racing than anywhere I can think of, they even get an Eclipse (which is absurd), for being nothing more than a customer.

It seems to me that if you're a group who intends to make inroads, then you desperately need to understand and have a really good grasp on the numbers and what the tracks have to deal with to keep afloat. Only then can you know if your demands, wishes and desires are reasonable or unreasonable. And really, maybe try actually giving a damn about the sport and supporting it. One really easy way is to at least use only industry-owned ADWs.

[JustRalph]

The best thing players could do is stop playing. Kill off as many tracks as possible. Forced contraction.

It won't matter though. In five years there won't be enough horses left to run except a few tracks. It might take ten years, but it depends on how hard they squeeze the available stock.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The tracks are selling a product. Most products have a 100% markup. What is racing's?

It's always interesting to me to hear gamblers grousing. I've yet to hear one, including Andy who apparently is quite involved in the details of these things, who has actually searched out the costs of running a track and made a thoughtful decision based on these facts. Driving a track out of business does you no good.

I learned the economics of movie theaters a long time ago. They get very little of ticket revenue, and it's the popcorn and drink sales that keep them afloat. I like my neighborhood theater, and so I splurge and buy popcorn and a drink instead of begrudging the cost because I hope they remain in business for my own entertainment.

For others, they'll support Mom and Pop stores instead of the megastores, even though they pay more, because they want the Mom and Pop to remain in business.

If a business is raking in the big bucks, and then wants to stick it to me at every turn, then it's those businesses I label as greedy and don't wish to give them my business (though sometimes I may want their product enough to do so anyway).

So, how does racing compare to others in what they make as way of "markup" on the product they sell? Are the tracks being greedy, and trying to stick it to you at every turn? I'd say that Churchill was greedy, and still is greedy, but I don't know that I think that of any other track.

And it just makes good old common sense to me that if lowering takeout really improves the tracks' bottom line then the tracks would be doing it.

If I could wave a magic wand and do one thing that I do think would increase the track's bottom line, which they could pass on to the handicappers, it'd be doing away with all ADWs except for ones that are track/industry owned. The percentage given away to ADWs is one that could be going to handicappers (or the track). This is why I only bet through Xpressbet when not on track.

When in the last 40 years have racetracks had an 8% takeout? A 10% takeout? A 12% takeout? How about never. So what give you the confidence and the good old common sense that 15 to 30% takeouts are optimal or that the decision makers even have a clue what optimal takeout is. Because they condescendingly gloat that the public doesn't even know what the takeout is? Why do you and the entire racing industry assume that if the racing industry blew up the current model and started over with no rebates and an 8% wps takeout and a 12% exotic takeout that they could not transform this sport into something special, generating profits and patronage that far exceed what they see today. It would likely take some heavy duty marketing and education of the public, but I believe that is very possible. With our current model, there is only one direction for this sport, the same direction it has gone over the last 15 years. You see the difference is that under the current system, doesn't matter how well they market, the public loses their money too fast and they never come back. Since you are such a big fan of retail and markups, you might want to look at Costco and Walmart as your examples, not Sears.

I have posted on this subject maybe 100 times by now. Not once have you ever seen me post "gee I sure wish that the takeout was lower so I can beat this game". Let me make this very clear, for my sake I do not give two flying ***** what racing does. It really doesn't matter. I love the game and I am not going to stop playing the game whatever they do. If they raise the takeout too much, I might shift my focus some, but I am not going anywhere. I am just not looking forward to the day that every harness track cannot get to a million dollars a night(we are almost there now) and that the big thoroughbred tracks start handling less than 5 million a day even on weekends.

This is about seeing a game that I love becoming a shadow of what it once was, for no other reason that the decision makers in this industry (despite your false confidence in their abilities) are clueless and/or self serving. I want to see this game thrive, they have other motivations, yet they are the ones with everything to lose. The irony.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

The best thing players could do is stop playing. Kill off as many tracks as possible. Forced contraction.

It won't matter though. In five years there won't be enough horses left to run except a few tracks. It might take ten years, but it depends on how hard they squeeze the available stock.

It's sort of a side note in the "is boycotting right/effective" debate, but this point should not be overlooked. It is not profitable to breed and race horses in the United States now. The lack of horses has been hurting field size and the quality of racing and unless something changes it's not going to get better. Tracks that are struggling and scrambling to hang on are going to go away no matter what their takeout.

[Dahoss9698]

Very fitting that Fager Fan, a non gambler by his own admission, thinks gamblers need to care more about the sport and is lecturing us about supporting it.



Its also amusing that he feels we need to care about how much it takes to run a track and make our decisions based on that. Spoken like someone with no business experience.

I cancelled my trip to Keeneland for opening weekend a few weeks ago and plan on betting ZERO dollars there this meet. I encourage everyone to do the same. This is our chance to take a stand. The only way to show Keeneland and the other tracks that we're not going to take it anymore is to stick it to them.

[Fager Fan]

Poin, I appreciate your post. Thanks.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

Very fitting that Fager Fan, a non gambler by his own admission, thinks gamblers need to care more about the sport and is lecturing us about supporting it.



Its also amusing that he feels we need to care about how much it takes to run a track and make our decisions based on that. Spoken like someone with no business experience.

I cancelled my trip to Keeneland for opening weekend a few weeks ago and plan on betting ZERO dollars there this meet. I encourage everyone to do the same. This is our chance to take a stand. The only way to show Keeneland and the other tracks that we're not going to take it anymore is to stick it to them.

The odds were 1-9 that you'd be along to make a snide comment about me. Try being less predictable and actually add something meaningful to a discussion.

I'll be betting KEE this meet to cancel out any effect you have. I figure that's about $10 a day.

[Hambletonian]

Spitting in the wind is very popular here.

Fact is, the last windfall (racinos) went to the owners, trainers, jockeys and vets.

Many tracks are now vastly overpaying purses compared to horse value, we have maiden races with purses equaling stakes races.

So the above groups are getting fat and happy.

If the tracks wanted to they could have take a portion of their share of racino profits and lowered takeout just because, but they know what the situation is.

Live racing is too expensive to put on, too real estate intensive and too labor intensive. Most tracks could save a lot of money by discouraging as many people as possible from attending. Zero on track would be a preferable number for most of them. You could at least reduce labor costs.

Most tracks should be enhanced for the modern age, but there is no money in reconstructing the amenities.

How much profit does DEL, PRX, CT, MNR and PENN make from racing as compared to slots? My guess is the number is so insignificant that investing any additional funds to the racing end of the enterprise would be foolish.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Racing 20 years from now will be much different from what we all grew up with.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The odds were 1-9 that you'd be along to make a snide comment about me. Try being less predictable and actually add something meaningful to a discussion.

I'll be betting KEE this meet to cancel out any effect you have. I figure that's about $10 a day.

Do you consider what you added meaningful? You have no idea what you're talking about and got corrected by three people.

Brilliant stuff!

I'm just glad I was able to get you going again. Goal is another full meltdown. Don't disappoint me.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Casinos make most of their profit from things other than gambling, like hotel rooms, shows, drinks and food, etc., all things that one can only do by actually GOING to the casino. You guys want to bet from the comfort of your jammies at home on the computer, most of the time through ADWs that go to profit some third party more than the track/sport.

Actually many casinos are making their profits online. See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0cca4f42d9d5d

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

People act in their best interests and racing is no different. Alright then, the tracks are acting in their best interest by raising prices.

I have no issue with tracks or any business making decisions that they believe are in their own best interests. But those decisions don't happen in a vacuum. The decisions can/will affect the behavior of their customers. Time will tell if the decisions prove to be a benefit or detriment. But for me, my decision, to quote Roberto Duran, was No Mas!

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Handicappers want it all. They want to have a voice and a seat at the table, yet they don't give a damn (as you just stated) about the sport as a whole. Handicappers fuss about paying to park, or paying admission, or paying a high dollar on a big day, or paying for the program, or the price of the track food. So you rarely as a whole help the sport profit from all the aforementioned items, then fuss about the takeout on the funds you push thru some third party ADW. Handicappers probably have a bigger voice in racing than anywhere I can think of, they even get an Eclipse (which is absurd), for being nothing more than a customer.

Really? I am just a customer. If not for customers would any business exist? I am not just a customer of racing I am a customer of hundreds of things. Businesses are created to fill the needs and wants of people. Those that are unable to do so at an agreeable price soon become former businesses.

ADWs were not created by horseplayers and horseplayers did not negotiate the deals between the tracks and the ADWs. I am not sure what voice you refer to that handicappers have but it sure isn't one that makes business decisions. Their voice is what they bet and how they bet and basically how they act as a customer.

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

It seems to me that if you're a group who intends to make inroads, then you desperately need to understand and have a really good grasp on the numbers and what the tracks have to deal with to keep afloat. Only then can you know if your demands, wishes and desires are reasonable or unreasonable. And really, maybe try actually giving a damn about the sport and supporting it. One really easy way is to at least use only industry-owned ADWs.

Should I have a good grasp of the numbers for grocery stores, gas stations, clothing stores, etc.? They all provide products at a price that they believe is in their best interest. I will buy their products if their product and pricing meet my needs. You seem to suggest that a racetrack should operate differently. What you are reading and witnessing is a business whose products are no longer desired by many at the price offered.

[cutchemist42]

So looks like the reason for the takeout is taking shape.

Feel bad for Kentucky Downs.....put out a good product and you all you do is get stomped out.