Free will is an illusion

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Light

I used to have occasional dreams of the results of races,seeing the winning number at the finish line. Once I saw the exacta and bet it in a 12 horse field. I told all my cronies before the race but they all dismissed it. I only had a handful of these dreams but they were always true. How is that possible unless the races were already run?

The closest I've ever come to an experience like that was a dream about a woman at work.

I had no work relationship with her at all. I never even spoke to her. I knew nothing about her from other people. One night I dreamed that she got engaged. When I went to work the next day there was a celebration at her desk. She got engaged the night before.

I'm not sure what the chances of that being a coincidence are, but it has to be very close to zero. It would be a different story if I knew her, knew she had a boyfriend, knew it was getting serious etc... Even then the chances of getting the exact night are pretty remote. But I knew nothing about her other than she was drop dead gorgeous and I would have preferred a different type dream.

It made me think seriously that there are things going on related "time" that may be different than conventional wisdom.

[thaskalos]

When I was young I was a big Three Stooges fan...but I had read nothing of a personal nature about them. One night while sleeping I dreamt that someone was reading the biography of the Three Stooges to me. When I awoke, I remembered from the dream that Curly was the first one to die at the age of 48. There were some other personal facts about them that I have since forgotten. Years latter while in a bookstore, I found a book on the Three Stooges...where I discovered that the details revealed in my dream were indeed true. To this day I cannot explain how this all happened...because it was long before I started listening to audiobooks through earbuds in bed, as a cure for my insomnia.

[boxcar]

You and CH should both read the Book of Daniel in the OT.

[sharkey11]

thask i too was an still am a stooge fan when i was young i was watching them an my dad said what kind of foolishness are you watching now i said im learning another language whats that my dad says i reply pig latin ya say some to me i says moe =omay larry = arylay curley = curley Q what else he asks dumb= umday he says your umday in any language !

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Lex Fridman and Sam Harris discuss why free will is an Illusion.

My head hurts.


https://youtu.be/SYq724zHUTw

I was prepared for the two main arguments from physicalism, that the laws of nature either make the universe deterministic (classical physics) or that quantum physics makes physical systems indeterminate, and randomness isn't free will.

He did briefly address that, but essentially Harris' main theme was that we are not responsible for our physical (or immaterial, to account for that camp) composition, i.e., had no "free will" in that process, joined to his own experience that he often cannot control sudden changes of mind, etc., largely "don't think about an elephant for the next 5 minutes" experiences.

These all have responses, but I lost all need in the last 10 minutes, as Harris reeled off one comedic line after another...

55:12..."We're diverting ourselves from some facts that should be obvious, and the more salient we can make them...in the case of death, it's a matter of getting our priorities straight".

55:51..."Then you can decide how you want to go through life and how want to experience each one of those days".

58:32..."How do we make the meal (life) that we're all having together as fun, as useful as possible"?

Taken as a whole, the project is to hold a podcast in order to make others aware of Harris' position, in order to effect change by viewing opponents as being not responsible for their actions, "removing hate", as well as diffusing self-contempt for past wrongful choices. No different than fellow atheist Jerry Coyne, who holds seminars with the same motivation, hoping to change minds about free will for all of us "machines made of meat".

[Light]

Originally Posted by porchy44

One of the main beliefs of Traditional Christianity is that only God can actually reveal to FUTURE to certain prophets, who work through Him, in order to achieve the goals he has designed.

From thousands of NDE's, God is not a Christian,nor any other religious figure, but does exist.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

By whom? Can't be us because we're created beings and make all our choices in Time. We're not immortal.

Our souls are indeed immortal because we are all children of God.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Light

From thousands of NDE's, God is not a Christian,nor any other religious figure, but does exist.

He didn't say God was a Christian. Christians believe that Christ is God.

Your Subjectivism should prevent you from ever criticizing someone else's personal belief, if you are being consistent.

[Light]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The closest I've ever come to an experience like that was a dream about a woman at work.

I had no work relationship with her at all. I never even spoke to her. I knew nothing about her from other people. One night I dreamed that she got engaged. When I went to work the next day there was a celebration at her desk. She got engaged the night before.

I'm not sure what the chances of that being a coincidence are, but it has to be very close to zero. It would be a different story if I knew her, knew she had a boyfriend, knew it was getting serious etc... Even then the chances of getting the exact night are pretty remote. But I knew nothing about her other than she was drop dead gorgeous and I would have preferred a different type dream.

It made me think seriously that there are things going on related "time" that may be different than conventional wisdom.

It's actually more commonplace to have these kinds of experiences than we tend to believe. And everyone has clairvoyance ability to one degree or another. One of the most common is thinking about someone and suddenly getting a phone call from that person or bumping into that person.

Dreams can be more than just psychic. In my case, one in particular was life changing as I had one of those "real dreams" where an "advanced spiritual being" gave me an answer to my own personal problem without saying a word. He simply put his hand on my shoulder, at which point I woke up and realized I knew the answer. I couldn't tell anyone about that dream for 2 months without crying. (There was more to it).

[Light]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Your Subjectivism should prevent you from ever criticizing someone else's personal belief, if you are being consistent.

By stating my beliefs, that is not a criticism of anyone else's belief. If you look at it that way then you are insecure in your own beliefs.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Light

By stating my beliefs, that is not a criticism of anyone else's belief. If you look at it that way then you are insecure in your own beliefs.

That's a half truth that doesn't account for past criticism's of Boxcar's statements of personal belief, for example. But maybe I've misrepresented you.

I think you mention Jesus. Does Jesus exist external to your experience? Is there an external truth you must conform to, or does your subjective experiential knowledge shape who Jesus is/what truth is?

[Light]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

That's a half truth that doesn't account for past criticism's of Boxcar's statements of personal belief, for example. But maybe I've misrepresented you.

Is boxcar your bar for spiritual truth? If so you have my sympathy.

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

I think you mention Jesus. Does Jesus exist external to your experience? Is there an external truth you must conform to, or does your subjective experiential knowledge shape who Jesus is/what truth is?

Spirituality is not focused on external appearances but on internal growth.I have had very personal experiences with God and Jesus. Two different beings.

Jesus is like an older, wiser, move me to tears brother.

God is like an extremely loving Father whose love beats any love I have experienced on this planet.

Neither God nor Jesus are religious. Only love beyond your imagination.

They teach me and show me things. But its not all peaches and cream. I do not and cannot define them. I am nothing compared to them,yet they treat me better than anyone.

To believe God and Jesus only matter after one's death is to lose a valuable resource while we are in this world.

This belief is based on my personal experience. If someone totally disbelieves me that's their business. Does not offend me. I have no interest in changing or criticizing anyone's belief or disbelief in God.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Light

Is boxcar your bar for spiritual truth? If so you have my sympathy.



Spirituality is not focused on external appearances but on internal growth.I have had very personal experiences with God and Jesus. Two different beings.

Jesus is like an older, wiser, move me to tears brother.

God is like an extremely loving Father whose love beats any love I have experienced on this planet.

Neither God nor Jesus are religious. Only love beyond your imagination.

They teach me and show me things. But its not all peaches and cream. I do not and cannot define them. I am nothing compared to them,yet they treat me better than anyone.

To believe God and Jesus only matter after one's death is to lose a valuable resource while we are in this world.

This belief is based on my personal experience. If someone totally disbelieves me that's their business. Does not offend me. I have no interest in changing or criticizing anyone's belief or disbelief in God.

Boxcar as the most obvious example of you having a disagreement with someone else's "subjective" interpretation. I have agreement and disagreement with Boxcar, but in my disagreements I'm not contradicting my belief in an objective, transcendent God who also indwells.
The question is, "Does one conform to God's image, or conform God to one's own image"?
Your "external appearances" completely misses the point about an external, objective, transcendent God apart from one's personal experience. It would take too long to agree about what we are discussing, and the thread is about something else.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Our souls are indeed immortal because we are all children of God.

No, sadly, the vast majority of the human race is a child of the Serpent. Even your "best friend" would agree with me.

Secondly, God created all things -- visible and invisible. He is the only Eternal One. God alone is the Great I AM!

Job 31:15
15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
NIV

And,
Isa 44:2
2 This is what the LORD says —
he who made you, who formed you in the womb...
NIV

And,

Isa 49:5
5 And now the LORD says —
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him...
NIV

And,

Jer 1:5
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you...
NIV

And,

Jer 20:17
17 For he did not kill me in the womb ,
with my mother as my grave...
NIV

And,

Hos 12:3
3 In the womb he grasped his brother's heel...
NIV

And in the very beginning...

Gen 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
NIV

And,

Gen 2:7
7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
NIV

I choose to believe God. By God's grace I have the faith of Abraham who believed [the promises of] God, and so God reckoned it unto him as righteousness -- that is to say, the Lord justified Abraham his servant on the basis of his genuine faith (Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:3).

[Redboard]

I watched most of the video and found it somewhat interesting. Although for me, this determinism/free will question is something I stopped thinking about a long time ago. The interesting question, IMO, (for the faithful who believe in God and free will), is this:

"If God gave us free will, the ability to do anything we want, how come we HAVE to love HIM or spend our life in misery? How is it free, if we must love God to be happy?”