Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

In Hinduism the trinity of God is similar to Christianity The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. These are all recognized in Vedic tradition. The "Vedas" are the Hindu scriptures.

God is the Isvara,(Brahma,God)) the Supreme controller the father of all and the cause of all causes.

He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes. Brahma samhita 5.1

O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread. Bg 7.7

It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father. Bg 14.4

The son (such as Krishna) is His representative who purely presents His instructions and is to be worshiped on the same level as God.

The spiritual master is to be honored as much as the Supreme Lord, because he is the most confidential servitor of the Lord. Bg ( Bhagavad Gita, the 5th Veda)


And the Holy Ghost is Paramatma (the supreme inner self) who is seated in everyone’s heart and assists the sincere in approaching Isvara, the Supreme Lord in conjunction with His Son, His pure devotee.

I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance. Bg 10.10 -11

"Similar" doesn't cut it. Similar means, "close but no cigar".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Not Peter's answer very carefully and how Jesus responded to Peter.

What do you mean "Not Peter's answer?" Did Mathew get it wrong?

And in verse 20 he told them not to tell anyone that he was the christ? Was it a secret, or a lie?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

What do you mean "Not Peter's answer?" Did Mathew get it wrong?

And in verse 20 he told them not to tell anyone that he was the christ? Was it a secret, or a lie?

A "secret" for the time being.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Light

The word “Trinity” can be found nowhere in the Bible.

Biblegateway.com confirms that, at least for the KJV.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Biblegateway.com confirms that, at least for the KJV.

So...what's your point? There are many theological terms not found in the bible that, nonetheless, denote biblical truths. Only a lame-brain would employ such a stupid argument in an attempt to refute the doctrine of the trinity.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So...what's your point?

Ask Light.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Light

FYI The Christian Trinity was an add on

No early Christian believed the concept of the Trinity. It did not enter into Christianity until after the council at Nicaea in the year 325 CE. That in itself should tell you something. The bible was completed in about 98 CE. Ask yourself: if the actual writers of the bible did not believe the Trinity how did people some 225 years later come up with the idea?

The Trinity is a solution to a problem that had arisen as higher christology developed within the faith. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus is the Son of God, but not divine like the Father; Mark 10:18 even says “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” Then,in the second century, John’s Gospel portrays Jesus as divine and pre-existing. Because of its Jewish roots, Christians insisted that Christianity was monotheistic, yet it was coming dangerously close to being a duotheistic religion.

Around the end of the second century, Tertullian came up with an idea quite similar to the Trinity. During the third century, this developed into what we know as the Holy Trinity, which was adopted as doctrine, although against some opposition, at the Council of Nicaea.

The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation. It had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures .It was grafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Plato's followers.

The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. This Greek philosopher’s conception of the divine trinity can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.

Throughout the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ

The pre-Nicene fathers Irenaeus, Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Justin, Theophilus, Clement of Alexandria, and Hippolytus described the Trinity informally, while arguably holding to the concept of the Trinity.
Athenagoras, in his Apology circa 176-177, gives an "able exposition of the Trinity"... https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02042b.htm

In this layman's translation [24], he knocks down virtually all the crude associations (anthropomorphic, born from primordial matter, birthing demons, wives and polygamy, etc., mostly Eastern and having "fun with numbers" (3), supposedly supplying Christians with the idea, "Hey! Trinity! https://brandonsnotepad.wordpress.co...goras-apology/

Where is our resident fallacy expert to shout, "Correlation does not imply causation"!
Of course there was time needed for deliberation and development of particular doctrine implicitly held, and informally stated in scripture ("Where is the word 'Trinity'"?). That happened in the early church itself regarding circumcision, roughly 20 years after Christ (Acts 15). A council to solve an issue(s) (Arianism) doesn't suddenly produce a response from a vacuum. Nor is there some secret fear that Just A Guy Behind A Keyboard will laughably connect Horus to the contemplation of faith informing reason, and reason (e.g., Classical philosophy) informing faith...

“That great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth is, in its rudiments or in its separate parts, to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian; of a divine kingdom is Judaic; of Angels and demons is Magian; the connection of sin with the body is Gnostic; celibacy is known to Bonze and Talapoin; a sacerdotal order is Egyptian; the idea of a new birth is Chinese and Eleusinian; belief in sacramental virtue is Pythagorean; and honours to the dead are a polytheism. Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr. Milman argues from it,—'These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:' we, on the contrary, prefer to say, 'these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen.' That is, we prefer to say, and we think that Scripture bears us out in saying, that from the beginning the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown up as in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living; and hence that, as the inferior animals have tokens of an immaterial principle in them, yet have not souls, so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine. What man is amid the brute creation, such is the Church among the schools of the world; and as Adam gave names to the animals about him, so has the Church from the first looked round upon the earth, noting and visiting the doctrines she found there.”
― John Henry Newman, An Essay On the Development of Christian Doctrine

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Ask Light.

Seriously? He's as clueless as they come.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

The pre-Nicene fathers Irenaeus, Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Justin, Theophilus, Clement of Alexandria, and Hippolytus described the Trinity informally, while arguably holding to the concept of the Trinity.
Athenagoras, in his Apology circa 176-177, gives an "able exposition of the Trinity"... https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02042b.htm

In this layman's translation [24], he knocks down virtually all the crude associations (anthropomorphic, born from primordial matter, birthing demons, wives and polygamy, etc., mostly Eastern and having "fun with numbers" (3), supposedly supplying Christians with the idea, "Hey! Trinity! https://brandonsnotepad.wordpress.co...goras-apology/

Where is our resident fallacy expert to shout, "Correlation does not imply causation"!
Of course there was time needed for deliberation and development of particular doctrine implicitly held, and informally stated in scripture ("Where is the word 'Trinity'"?). That happened in the early church itself regarding circumcision, roughly 20 years after Christ (Acts 15). A council to solve an issue(s) (Arianism) doesn't suddenly produce a response from a vacuum. Nor is there some secret fear that Just A Guy Behind A Keyboard will laughably connect Horus to the contemplation of faith informing reason, and reason (e.g., Classical philosophy) informing faith...

“That great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth is, in its rudiments or in its separate parts, to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian; of a divine kingdom is Judaic; of Angels and demons is Magian; the connection of sin with the body is Gnostic; celibacy is known to Bonze and Talapoin; a sacerdotal order is Egyptian; the idea of a new birth is Chinese and Eleusinian; belief in sacramental virtue is Pythagorean; and honours to the dead are a polytheism. Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr. Milman argues from it,—'These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:' we, on the contrary, prefer to say, 'these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen.' [ b]That is, we prefer to say, and we think that Scripture bears us out in saying, that from the beginning the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown up as in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living; and hence that, as the inferior animals have tokens of an immaterial principle in them, yet have not souls, so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine. What man is amid the brute creation, such is the Church among the schools of the world; and as Adam gave names to the animals about him, so has the Church from the first looked round upon the earth, noting and visiting the doctrines she found there.”
― John Henry Newman, An Essay On the Development of Christian[/b] Doctrine

I agree. And it's called Oral Tradition which has spread throughout the earth from the very beginning -- right from the protoevangelium of Gen 3:15. More striking evidence for this phenomena can be seen in Job 19:25-27 who knew his Redeemer lives, that is Redeemer was divine, that he himself would be resurrected and one day see God on the earth, etc. How did Job, who very likely was born before Abraham, know all these things? Perhaps his words that immediately precede the above passage give us a big clue:

Job 19:23-24
23 "Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!
NIV

Oral Tradition evolved into more permanent forms. I have little doubt that Job learned these things from the records of previous generations before him.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Seriously? He's as clueless as they come.

Ad hominem!

Light made a claim that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. I cited a source which confirms this. So take the conversation back to Light. I have no interest beyond trivial pursuit.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

... it's called Oral Tradition ...

Known in modern times as the game of telephone.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Ad hominem!

Light made a claim that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. I cited a source which confirms this. So take the conversation back to Light. I have no interest beyond trivial pursuit.

Congratulations. You confirmed a pointless argument made by a clueless wonder, proving the "birds of a feather" phenom.

And by the way, I never disagreed with his claim regarding the term "trinity". It was accurate insofar as it went, so what possessed you to get involved? Did you feel compelled because I thoroughly exposed his intellectual bankruptcy in using such a lame argument as a refutation of the doctrine of the trinity in the bible?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Known in modern times as the game of telephone.

But in ancient times, oral tradition!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But in ancient times, oral tradition!

Same result. The story told at the beginning does not the story match heard by the guy at the end.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Same result. The story told at the beginning does not the story match heard by the guy at the end.

Huh?