How much is it worth to NOT have robotic wagerers in the pools?

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

You can keep taking this further and further back.

It costs a ton of money to have a breeding operation. If owners aren't willing to pay the prices needed to keep breeders afloat, breeder's will stop breeding thoroughbreds to race.

The economics of the industry are poor and it's like that for virtually everyone.

How many breeder's are making good money based on their investment?

How many owners are making good money based on their investment?

How many jockeys and trainers are making a good living?

How many tracks are whole without casino subsidies?

How many horse players have a large enough edge to make all the work they put into game worthwhile? How many have any edge at all?

I'm going to guess that "not too many" covers most of the answers. Too many people are fighting over a small and potentially shrinking pie. We can either grow the pie better or consolidate the industry.

The way the Industry does business must change. The best hope of positive change will come from the Stronach Group. I think people will be surprised in a good way at some of things they want to do. And yes, I'm keenly aware of the timing problems and post drag stuff.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

You can keep taking this further and further back.

It costs a ton of money to have a breeding operation. If owners aren't willing to pay the prices needed to keep breeders afloat, breeder's will stop breeding thoroughbreds to race.

The economics of the industry are poor and it's like that for virtually everyone.

How many breeder's are making good money based on their investment?

How many owners are making good money based on their investment?

How many jockeys and trainers are making a good living?

How many tracks are whole without casino subsidies?

How many horse players have a large enough edge to make all the work they put into game worthwhile? How many have any edge at all?

I'm going to guess that "not too many" covers most of the answers. Too many people are fighting over a small and potentially shrinking pie. We can either grow the pie better or consolidate the industry.

The trainers are making good money. What I'd call a mid level trainer is making $250k or so a year. These guys get the rewards of the investments by their owners without the massive losses. Note how many horses Pletcher, Brown, and Baffert own.

But otherwise I agree. The trainers are for the most part the exception in that list, though I wouldn't want their life of 24/7/365, and not able to go home every night.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

The way the Industry does business must change. The best hope of positive change will come from the Stronach Group. I think people will be surprised in a good way at some of things they want to do. And yes, I'm keenly aware of the timing problems and post drag stuff.

Stronach is the only big operator that is bullish on horse racing, Penn National, Chruchill, Harrah's and Mohegan Sun are bearish and just going through the motion's to get the slot and casino money.

i am told in Vegas, Samstown and Wynn are bullish as well.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The trainers are making good money. What I'd call a mid level trainer is making $250k or so a year. These guys get the rewards of the investments by their owners without the massive losses. Note how many horses Pletcher, Brown, and Baffert own.

But otherwise I agree. The trainers are for the most part the exception in that list, though I wouldn't want their life of 24/7/365, and not able to go home every night.

I think you could say the same about mid level jockeys. The top 200 in 2017 all had minimum of $1,501,563 in earnings, so they aren't exactly struggling to get by.

[green80]

Originally Posted by MONEY

I know an owner/trainer here in Texas, and he told me that for each picture that he takes in the winners circle, he spends close to $50,000.

I don't doubt that to be true. I would say that over 90% of owners lose money. With the cost of the horse,the training or boarding cost, vet bills , etc. a horse has to earn 20 to 25k a year or more to break even. How many horses do that?

[cj]

Originally Posted by green80

I don't doubt that to be true. I would say that over 90% of owners lose money. With the cost of the horse,the training or boarding cost, vet bills , etc. a horse has to earn 20 to 25k a year or more to break even. How many horses do that?

Definitely they have to earn more than that to break even.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The trainers are making good money. What I'd call a mid level trainer is making $250k or so a year. These guys get the rewards of the investments by their owners without the massive losses. Note how many horses Pletcher, Brown, and Baffert own.

But otherwise I agree. The trainers are for the most part the exception in that list, though I wouldn't want their life of 24/7/365, and not able to go home every night.

There are definitely jockeys and trainers making a lot of money (especially on the major circuits), but how many are making a good living on the smaller tracks and how many drop out each year because they can't.

Even in NY I hear rumors of fairly big name trainers that are behind on their bills and struggling where I would have guessed they were still making good money. There are significant costs to operate.

[cj]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

There are definitely jockeys and trainers making a lot of money (especially on the major circuits), but how many are making a good living on the smaller tracks and how many drop out each year because they can't.

You could say this about any sport really. The top make a ton, there is a very healthy group below the elite level, then it gets tough. But as I noted, a lot of guys are making a very nice living riding horses and obviously training too. If you are in this sport to make money those are the two groups with the most potential IMO. It is actually easier for jockeys than trainers, no doubt due to the huge barns for a select group these days.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by green80

I don't doubt that to be true. I would say that over 90% of owners lose money. With the cost of the horse,the training or boarding cost, vet bills , etc. a horse has to earn 20 to 25k a year or more to break even. How many horses do that?

I'm sure it varies from circuit to circuit and trainer to trainer, but in NY you aren't even going to cover your trainer's day rate for 25K.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

I think you could say the same about mid level jockeys. The top 200 in 2017 all had minimum of $1,501,563 in earnings, so they aren't exactly struggling to get by.

I thought about including them, but of them I'm less sure. With the trainers, I feel comfortable with that number being salary, after they've paid all their employees and business bills. For the jockeys, they have their agents to pay plus I don't know if they have rather large insurance payments or if they're getting most/all paid for by the tracks/owners. Obviously the guys at the top are doing very well, I just didn't know how far down the list we'd have to go.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

Stronach is the only big operator that is bullish on horse racing, Penn National, Chruchill, Harrah's and Mohegan Sun are bearish and just going through the motion's to get the slot and casino money.

i am told in Vegas, Samstown and Wynn are bullish as well.

This is why I can get so defensive about Stronach. He's not perfect, he may be hard to work for, but he loves the sport and pours millions into it. He tries to be innovative. He owns a farm and has racehorses so pours more money into it there too, not just with his tracks. He has a retirement program for his ex racehorses to put them into new careers. He also took the very unusual stand of selling horses at the 2yo sales in just a gallop, because he knew the speed that was being asked was too much for them to be doing. He took a beating doing that so had to get out of the 2yo in training market.

Then you have an entity like Churchill Downs who truly cares about only one thing: How much money they can squeeze out of the Kentucky Derby. They couldn't care less about the sport. Money is their sole motive for existence.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

You could say this about any sport really. The top make a ton, there is a very healthy group below the elite level, then it gets tough. But as I noted, a lot of guys are making a very nice living riding horses and obviously training too. If you are in this sport to make money those are the two groups with the most potential IMO. It is actually easier for jockeys than trainers, no doubt due to the huge barns for a select group these days.

The most absurdly overpaid entity in the sport is the agent. At least the trainers and riders deserve and work really hard for their pay.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The most absurdly overpaid entity in the sport is the agent. At least the trainers and riders deserve and work really hard for their pay.

I'm frugal. I'd 100% be my own agent if I were a rider, or any kind of paid athlete for that matter

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

I'm frugal. I'd 100% be my own agent if I were a rider, or any kind of paid athlete for that matter

I've wondered if most of the jocks actually need their agents. ;-)

[Fager Fan]

Just for kicks, I looked up some numbers at the JC to come up with some good estimates to therefore reach the following numbers:

20,850 per foal crop
6,963 sold as yearlings for $422m
2,357 sold as 2yoIT for $177m
11,530 aren't sold so will race as homebreds, for our purposes I'll put a $20k cost of raising and $10k stud fee average on these, to total $346m.

So our owners have paid $945m in yearly costs just for the purchase of each new crop of horses.

There are approx. 52,000 starters in a year. More train or on layup than start, but we'll just use the starters, and a $30k yearly expenses average per starter. That totals $1.56 billion in training and other costs.

So our owners are spending about $2.5 billion per year, and getting back in purses about $1.1 billion, leaving them with a net loss of $1.4 billion per year.