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Old 07-11-2012, 10:31 PM   #1
Mr G
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NY
Posts: 311
Outside Post position @ Yonkers

I wager mostly on thoroughbreds but am taking more interest in following the trotters....I live on Long Island and do my wagering through the NYRA Rewards Internet website which shows live racing of Yonkers and a few other harness tracks...


In the old days when I use to frequent OTB the guys who played Yonkers would always make mention of how the extreme outside post, like 8, was at a severe disadvantage due to the amount of ground it must make up the way the track at Yonkers is.

My questions are is it true that the extreme outside posts at Yonkers is at a disadvantage to the inside posts and are the other harness tracks in the state of NY also have the same disadvantage for the outside posts?

( I used the "Search Forum" to try to see past posts about "outside posts" but kept getting a error message)

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 1048576 bytes) in /usr/www/users/paceadv/forum/search.php on line 974


So that is why I am making this post to ask.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:46 PM   #2
beaucap
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Posts: 200
Pay attention....to Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr G
I wager mostly on thoroughbreds but am taking more interest in following the trotters....I live on Long Island and do my wagering through the NYRA Rewards Internet website which shows live racing of Yonkers and a few other harness tracks...


In the old days when I use to frequent OTB the guys who played Yonkers would always make mention of how the extreme outside post, like 8, was at a severe disadvantage due to the amount of ground it must make up the way the track at Yonkers is.

My questions are is it true that the extreme outside posts at Yonkers is at a disadvantage to the inside posts and are the other harness tracks in the state of NY also have the same disadvantage for the outside posts?

( I used the "Search Forum" to try to see past posts about "outside posts" but kept getting a error message)

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 1048576 bytes) in /usr/www/users/paceadv/forum/search.php on line 974


So that is why I am making this post to ask.
Thanks in advance for any help.

ASK RAY 2000.....HE has all that info and more.........
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:26 PM   #3
Overlay
 
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Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
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When I lived in New York and played Yonkers and Roosevelt back in the '70's, the bias toward inside post positions at those half-mile tracks was very pronounced. A horse had to be in markedly superior shape or have racing luck go his way to win from anywhere outside the 5 post, due to the effort exerted to get in a contending position early, or to catch up later in the race from having lost ground around the first turn.
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:37 PM   #4
Mr G
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NY
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Thanks and just a few moments ago I was reading about the history of Yonkers....http://www.horseracing.info/yonkers-racetrack.html


Quite an interesting history.
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:55 AM   #5
Ray2000
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Location: Clarion, Pa
Posts: 8,478
Here's the latest unofficial post stats I have for 2010 thru 2011
Yonkers is shown for before and after 2/2/11 (1 mile vs 1-1/16 mile in 2011)
Bias is percent more or less than expected wins accounting for the field size.
Some 2012 stats can be found at http://racing.ustrotting.com/ under menu "Track Statistics"


Code:
Track	 PP1 	 PP2 	 PP3 	 PP4 	 PP5 	 PP6 	 PP7 	 PP8 	 PP9 	 PP10 	 PP11	 PP12
ACES	715	712	688	714	717	676	563	447	253	16	0	0
Win%	14%	14%	14%	17%	16%	15%	10%	10%	10%	6%		
Bias	4%	8%	6%	32%	22%	14%	-22%	-16%	-11%	-39%		
ROI%	-32%	-22%	-28%	-13%	-21%	-10%	-44%	-11%	10%	-48%		
												
BANG	860	889	872	853	869	806	681	429	12	0	0	0
Win%	15%	17%	14%	18%	19%	13%	8%	5%	8%			
Bias	6%	24%	-4%	28%	36%	-7%	-41%	-63%	-24%			
ROI%	-31%	-28%	-31%	-2%	3%	-19%	-35%	-36%	-79%			
													
BMLP	2902	2895	2856	2846	2876	2839	2605	1995	1323	727	5	3
Win%	15%	13%	13%	13%	15%	13%	11%	10%	9%	9%	0%	0%
Bias	23%	8%	6%	3%	17%	4%	-10%	-10%	-16%	-15%		
ROI%	-19%	-27%	-26%	-29%	-27%	-25%	-37%	-20%	-33%	-23%		
												
BR	2081	2067	2077	2068	2079	2065	1980	1515	0	0	0	0
Win%	25%	18%	15%	18%	14%	8%	6%	3%				
Bias	95%	35%	12%	36%	9%	-41%	-57%	-79%				
ROI%	-3%	-23%	-12%	-13%	-11%	-41%	-24%	-70%				
												
BTVA	1506	1501	1475	1492	1484	1469	1391	1040	0	0	0	0
Win%	28%	17%	15%	17%	15%	7%	5%	3%				
Bias	116%	26%	11%	30%	15%	-44%	-62%	-77%				
ROI%	8%	-17%	-23%	-1%	-12%	-42%	-44%	-44%				
												
CALX	2526	2532	2558	2538	2559	2447	1935	1218	490	228	20	9
Win%	15%	14%	13%	14%	21%	12%	10%	8%	9%	8%	0%	0%
Bias	7%	5%	-4%	3%	51%	-10%	-20%	-31%	-20%	-19%		
ROI%	-24%	-22%	-29%	-18%	11%	-28%	-28%	-15%	-12%	-11%		
												
CHST	3335	3394	3369	3396	3364	3306	3047	2189	6	3	0	0
Win%	13%	13%	14%	20%	19%	12%	10%	7%	0%	33%		
Bias	-4%	0%	2%	50%	46%	-9%	-26%	-46%	-100%	233%		
ROI%	-38%	-34%	-37%	-1%	-4%	-28%	-43%	-52%	-100%	930%		
												
CNL	488	475	494	497	469	481	401	317	227	109	2	0
Win%	14%	14%	13%	11%	17%	15%	10%	9%	10%	10%	0%	
Bias	10%	8%	1%	-9%	32%	17%	-14%	-15%	-8%	1%		
ROI%	-23%	-30%	-28%	-33%	-16%	28%	-43%	-26%	28%	-8%		
												
DD	3358	3354	3378	3379	3366	3306	3154	2480	1126	3	0	0
Win%	18%	15%	15%	16%	17%	10%	7%	5%	10%	0%		
Bias	43%	21%	15%	30%	33%	-24%	-42%	-62%	-10%			
ROI%	-19%	-20%	-21%	-18%	-7%	-33%	-31%	-50%	-43%			
												
FHLD	2600	2585	2596	2614	2620	2563	2413	1805	18	2	0	0
Win%	25%	19%	16%	16%	14%	8%	5%	3%	33%	0%		
Bias	88%	43%	18%	20%	8%	-36%	-62%	-77%	191%			
ROI%	-17%	-11%	-28%	-20%	-14%	-36%	-41%	-73%	36%			
												
FLMD	3948	3977	3941	3964	3975	3896	3699	2630	3116	1	0	0
Win%	22%	17%	16%	15%	15%	8%	5%	4%	9%	0%		
Bias	85%	45%	30%	22%	28%	-31%	-55%	-62%	-18%			
ROI%	-7%	-21%	-13%	-25%	-17%	-39%	-49%	-47%	-38%			
												
FRD	1532	1508	1533	1513	1518	1440	1296	986	890	1	0	0
Win%	17%	16%	15%	16%	15%	8%	7%	5%	9%	0%		
Bias	35%	23%	19%	26%	20%	-32%	-43%	-55%	-21%			
ROI%	-17%	-16%	1%	-22%	-17%	-42%	-36%	-40%	-44%			
												
GEOD	1968	1920	1957	1971	1955	1932	1856	1551	863	47	4	2
Win%	20%	17%	15%	15%	15%	9%	8%	7%	5%	9%	0%	0%
Bias	62%	41%	25%	25%	22%	-25%	-34%	-38%	-51%	-18%		
ROI%	-8%	-22%	-23%	-28%	-29%	-37%	-30%	-28%	-40%	-81%		
												
GRVR	1187	1217	1228	1223	1195	1215	1139	876	979	1	0	0
Win%	22%	18%	17%	17%	15%	9%	9%	4%	12%	0%		
Bias	81%	54%	40%	41%	25%	-25%	-27%	-64%	0%			
ROI%	-1%	-19%	-18%	-13%	-22%	-37%	-9%	-36%	-29%			
												
HAR	2740	2736	2738	2752	2727	2706	2558	1957	0	0	0	0
Win%	20%	17%	15%	18%	14%	9%	6%	6%				
Bias	52%	31%	12%	33%	8%	-28%	-51%	-52%				
ROI%	-25%	-24%	-20%	-13%	-25%	-29%	-38%	-23%				
												
HOP	1672	1654	1673	1688	1691	1688	1615	1564	1213	1371	54	21
Win%	11%	11%	11%	14%	16%	11%	10%	10%	7%	10%	11%	5%
Bias	4%	3%	9%	31%	53%	2%	-4%	1%	-28%	-5%	22%	-44%
ROI%	-30%	-26%	-30%	-5%	1%	-28%	-23%	-13%	-41%	-29%	-4%	-91%
												
HP	1172	1174	1186	1207	1207	1169	1067	787	489	6	2	0
Win%	12%	13%	13%	16%	19%	13%	9%	9%	5%	17%	0%	
Bias	-3%	5%	5%	27%	52%	4%	-24%	-23%	-54%	72%		
ROI%	-35%	-28%	-28%	-14%	7%	-24%	-35%	-23%	-52%	275%		
												
INDY	1671	1667	1694	1737	1728	1692	1644	1489	958	950	60	13
Win%	12%	12%	14%	15%	15%	12%	9%	8%	9%	11%	17%	0%
Bias	5%	8%	21%	29%	32%	7%	-15%	-26%	-14%	3%	78%	
ROI%	-21%	-18%	-3%	-21%	-22%	-27%	-35%	-39%	-23%	-12%	-2%	
												
KD	1657	1640	1649	1668	1650	1666	1594	1201	1266	1	0	0
Win%	17%	16%	14%	17%	16%	10%	8%	6%	9%	0%		
Bias	44%	37%	16%	41%	35%	-16%	-31%	-49%	-21%			
ROI%	-17%	-14%	-24%	-9%	-10%	-38%	-41%	-53%	-18%			
												
LEB	1001	1005	1002	1025	996	1003	920	643	574	0	0	0
Win%	22%	16%	17%	14%	13%	9%	6%	4%	10%			
Bias	78%	31%	39%	14%	5%	-24%	-50%	-69%	-16%			
ROI%	-8%	-34%	-10%	-24%	-13%	-48%	-33%	-59%	-43%			
												
LEX	483	496	508	518	508	480	418	340	233	113	20	10
Win%	16%	13%	12%	15%	18%	14%	11%	8%	10%	18%	15%	0%
Bias	27%	0%	-3%	24%	40%	14%	-11%	-31%	-1%	79%	62%	
ROI%	15%	-33%	-23%	21%	-17%	-14%	-3%	-22%	7%	195%	-48%	
												
LON	2468	2452	2438	2480	2473	2392	1904	2226	1	0	0	0
Win%	21%	18%	18%	18%	11%	9%	7%	11%	0%			
Bias	61%	37%	41%	39%	-20%	-32%	-48%	-18%				
ROI%	-18%	-13%	2%	-2%	-44%	-28%	-37%	-33%				
												
MAY	2129	2132	2152	2158	2145	2137	2014	1415	486	0	0	0
Win%	18%	16%	15%	16%	15%	11%	7%	6%	10%			
Bias	37%	24%	13%	27%	13%	-12%	-44%	-52%	-12%			
ROI%	-40%	-34%	-27%	-9%	-29%	-19%	-40%	-25%	-19%			
												
BigM	2159	2171	2155	2178	2201	2175	2088	1897	1561	974	29	5
Win%	13%	12%	11%	12%	15%	14%	10%	9%	9%	10%	17%	0%
Bias	19%	10%	0%	8%	37%	24%	-8%	-19%	-15%	-3%	88%	
ROI%	-20%	-31%	-30%	-26%	-4%	-4%	-29%	-36%	-33%	-25%	16%
												
MEA	5216	5169	5206	5225	5257	5205	5021	4420	2716	9	6	5
Win%	13%	13%	14%	15%	17%	13%	10%	8%	6%	0%	17%	0%
Bias	9%	9%	12%	21%	40%	5%	-14%	-28%	-47%		77%	
ROI%	-29%	-27%	-23%	-23%	-7%	-14%	-26%	-7%	-45%		-22%	
												
MOH	1906	1915	1920	1912	1960	1940	1841	1622	1246	721	11	2
Win%	11%	13%	12%	12%	17%	18%	11%	9%	8%	4%	18%	0%
Bias	-7%	15%	-1%	1%	50%	58%	-7%	-19%	-27%	-56%	98%	
ROI%	-16%	-8%	-28%	-32%	-2%	-8%	-23%	-38%	-27%	-51%	13%	
												
MR	4450	4498	4479	4519	4510	4416	4133	2973	81	3	0	0
Win%	21%	17%	17%	17%	16%	9%	7%	4%	12%	0%		
Bias	56%	32%	27%	30%	22%	-32%	-49%	-68%	9%			
ROI%	-19%	-22%	-17%	-20%	-14%	-41%	-38%	-53%	51%			
												
NFLD	4937	4925	4954	4955	4899	4898	4739	3630	3916	4	0	0
Win%	19%	17%	15%	15%	13%	8%	6%	4%	11%	25%		
Bias	63%	43%	27%	23%	13%	-34%	-51%	-63%	-7%	150%		
ROI%	-17%	-19%	-26%	-24%	-29%	-43%	-41%	-45%	-27%	43%		
												
NOR	1277	1228	1239	1256	1254	1265	1182	905	881	1	0	0
Win%	14%	15%	13%	15%	19%	10%	8%	8%	9%	0%		
Bias	21%	25%	10%	24%	60%	-15%	-29%	-34%	-23%			
ROI%	-37%	-8%	-30%	-19%	4%	-16%	-34%	-20%	-33%			
												
NP	620	628	635	625	617	576	490	350	230	0	0	0
Win%	16%	12%	17%	19%	19%	11%	7%	5%	9%			
Bias	24%	-8%	24%	40%	40%	-14%	-46%	-54%	-19%			
ROI%	-18%	-35%	-1%	-12%	0%	-9%	-67%	-60%	-33%			
												
OD	239	250	247	241	249	239	201	147	127	1	0	0
Win%	17%	20%	15%	13%	15%	10%	5%	6%	13%	0%		
Bias	31%	62%	14%	4%	18%	-20%	-59%	-47%	10%			
ROI%	-9%	-1%	-33%	-41%	-23%	-58%	-77%	-61%	-30%			
												
PCD	3556	3567	3563	3552	3591	3566	3368	2871	1766	0	0	0
Win%	15%	14%	15%	17%	16%	11%	9%	7%	7%			
Bias	23%	12%	21%	36%	29%	-12%	-22%	-39%	-37%			
ROI%	-24%	-23%	-17%	0%	-20%	-32%	-24%	-37%	-39%			
												
PPK	2250	2237	2281	2255	2249	2179	1955	1579	900	70	1	0
Win%	12%	13%	12%	14%	24%	14%	10%	7%	5%	7%	0%	
Bias	-2%	-2%	-7%	6%	89%	8%	-17%	-41%	-57%	-31%		
ROI%	-25%	-32%	-34%	-32%	21%	-19%	-15%	-40%	-54%	-46%		
												
PRC	1435	1406	1436	1429	1426	1380	1162	747	190	0	0	0
Win%	17%	16%	13%	17%	15%	12%	10%	7%	3%			
Bias	26%	19%	-2%	24%	13%	-12%	-26%	-40%	-72%			
ROI%	-25%	-22%	-36%	-4%	-21%	-25%	-24%	-8%	-66%			
												
RCR	110	118	111	117	123	100	86	41	35	0	0	0
Win%	15%	13%	13%	16%	24%	16%	16%	2%	6%			
Bias	3%	-10%	-10%	13%	67%	17%	27%	-79%	-53%			
ROI%	-30%	-11%	-28%	30%	22%	-25%	-30%	-94%	-65%			
												
RIDC	3804	3839	3768	3804	3799	3749	3474	2549	2488	1	0	0
Win%	20%	17%	15%	15%	15%	9%	7%	6%	10%	0%		
Bias	61%	37%	20%	23%	24%	-23%	-40%	-47%	-15%			
ROI%	-7%	-15%	-22%	-28%	-16%	-43%	-42%	-44%	-34%			
												
RP	956	951	943	948	949	923	815	498	378	1	0	0
Win%	15%	13%	16%	17%	18%	13%	10%	7%	9%	0%		
Bias	11%	-4%	25%	28%	35%	-2%	-23%	-40%	-23%			
ROI%	-24%	-42%	-18%	-18%	-22%	-31%	-46%	-34%	-50%			
												
SCAR	1792	1756	1784	1797	1775	1701	1479	1054	7	0	0	0
Win%	19%	18%	17%	17%	16%	10%	7%	4%	0%			
Bias	39%	35%	23%	24%	19%	-27%	-50%	-65%	-100%			
ROI%	-12%	-5%	-23%	-2%	7%	-34%	-52%	-62%	-100%			
												
SCD	936	930	941	905	944	902	869	784	542	548	1	0
Win%	14%	15%	14%	17%	16%	12%	9%	6%	4%	8%	0%	
Bias	27%	30%	22%	54%	44%	10%	-23%	-43%	-59%	-20%		
ROI%	-27%	-18%	-21%	3%	-4%	-31%	-38%	-42%	-73%	-42%		
												
SPCK	404	415	411	417	423	395	364	264	153	0	0	0
Win%	13%	14%	14%	20%	19%	12%	10%	8%	8%			
Bias	0%	10%	11%	52%	46%	-3%	-22%	-36%	-24%			
ROI%	-30%	-22%	-28%	28%	-12%	-17%	-61%	-15%	-19%			
												
STGA	3191	3231	3237	3222	3196	3176	3014	2318	104	2	0	0
Win%	21%	16%	16%	17%	13%	10%	7%	6%	13%	0%		
Bias	63%	21%	20%	33%	3%	-23%	-42%	-55%	18%			
ROI%	-23%	-28%	-18%	-4%	-21%	-31%	-32%	-44%	-28%			
												
TGDN	1064	1087	1100	1086	1077	1080	960	783	417	13	1	0
Win%	14%	15%	13%	19%	17%	13%	9%	8%	4%	8%	100%	
Bias	11%	19%	5%	48%	35%	0%	-30%	-28%	-65%	-24%	900%	
ROI%	-11%	-20%	-22%	11%	-10%	-38%	-32%	-34%	-81%	82%	480%	
												
VD	1586	1581	1568	1584	1578	1552	1399	1161	593	6	0	0
Win%	13%	13%	13%	15%	19%	14%	12%	9%	8%	33%		
Bias	3%	5%	4%	21%	53%	11%	-3%	-26%	-32%	227%		
ROI%	-14%	-26%	-23%	-11%	10%	-29%	-19%	-44%	-57%	232%		
												
WDB	2542	2552	2519	2565	2562	2529	2446	2192	1761	1084	13	0
Win%	10%	11%	12%	11%	16%	19%	11%	9%	8%	6%	8%	
Bias	-17%	0%	2%	-4%	39%	68%	-3%	-18%	-23%	-40%	-18%	
ROI%	-32%	-32%	-21%	-37%	-11%	-1%	-26%	-21%	-22%	-16%	-78%	
												
WR	1896	1910	1882	1916	1909	1855	1740	1412	861	3	1	0
Win%	16%	14%	14%	18%	17%	12%	9%	5%	4%	0%	0%	
Bias	29%	14%	16%	44%	37%	0%	-30%	-54%	-62%			
ROI%	-29%	-30%	-33%	-13%	-12%	-20%	-25%	-36%	-65%			
												
YR2011	2033	2057	2057	2052	2073	2070	1989	1567				
Win%	18%	16%	14%	17%	16%	11%	8%	5%				
Bias	39%	25%	6%	30%	20%	-19%	-39%	-57%				
ROI%	-30%	-17%	-31%	-25%	-18%	-23%	-25%	-35%				
												
YR2010	2786	2772	2790	2767	2793	2761	2666	2034		
Win%	24%	18%	16%	17%	15%	7%	5%	4%				
Bias	86%	36%	24%	28%	17%	-43%	-62%	-70%				
ROI%	-11%	-18%	-16%	-15%	-3%	-42%	-49%	-50%
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Old 07-12-2012, 11:38 AM   #6
Mr G
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Thanks very much Ray...and thanks for that link as it has a ton of information I will spend time reading.

I took the screenshots just now from there and question I have is what does the UDRS column mean on the drivers stat screenshot?

Also, what is your opinion or outlook on the future of Harness Racing from now say until 5 years out in the future?

Thanks again!

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:24 PM   #7
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Mr G


The UDRS is a "Universal Driver Stat" similar to a batting average in baseball.

The USTA calculates it by using a drivers( wins x9 + places x5 + shows x3) / starts x9




As for the look into the 5 year crystal ball, I see the game splitting into 2 directions,

First, the emergence of a single, year round, 1 mile Super track with all ties to online wagering, rebates, robotic wagering and major stakes races. One in US and one in Canada. All other tracks will just be Casinos, no live racing.

and secondly.
A return to small fair like meets lasting 3 or 4 weeks at local communities with no ties to internet gambling, built on the Delaware Fair Jug format.

Just my thoughts on where we might go to save this sport I like so much..
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:18 PM   #8
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Thanks Ray for your help, knowledge and insight...I sure appreciate it!
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:46 PM   #9
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I used to bet posts 7 and 8 a lot at Yonkers and made many scores and had a lot of winners, but that was back in the 1970's. The racing was dramatically different back then and so was the track configuration. Now Yonkers starts the races very close to the first turn so posts 6, 7 and 8 are brutal.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:09 PM   #10
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Thanks Ray.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:37 PM   #11
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Glad to help

Here's the winning favorites that I have from USTA listed in Nov 2011,

Batavia 46.83% .....on 841 starts
Balmoral 40.98% ....on 1672
Calx 39.43% ........on 545
Chester 44.43% .....on 1909
Dover 43.45% .......on 665
Freehold 46.88% ....on 386
Northfield 45.55% ..on 2787
Meadows 39.06% .....on 3033
Meadowlands 43.64%..on 876 ...(2012 stats)
Monticello 44.18% ..on 2295
Maywood 43.45% .....on 1275
Plainridge 37.86%...on 734
Pompano 39.80% .....on 505
Saratoga 43.36% ....on 2110
Sports Creek 37.72% on 228
Yonkers 42.49% .....on 2775


Mohawk 35.80%.......on 936 ...(5/17-9/21 this year)
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