Religion III

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You're changing the subject. The irrefutable fact is that all ANE nations and cultures had temples or at least altars built to their gods and assigned priests to offer blood sacrifices to appease the anger of their gods. Ancient mankind knew about the Fall, through oral tradition, and understood that sin greatly displeased God. They also understood that the penalty for sin was death. This is why God in the Garden, immediately after the Fall, instituted the universal principle of substitutionary atonement. Innocent animals were slain in place of the two guilty sinners!

While scripture itself teaches that the blood of bulls and lambs, in and of themselves, can never take away sins, the sacrificial atonement rituals were symbolical in nature, for they were designed to foreshadow or prefigure the coming ultimate atoning sacrifice. But meanwhile until that ultimate sacrifice arrived on the world stage, pious Jews, who offered sacrifices in faith through levitical priests, received forgiveness for their sins.

So...the two $64. questions become who is this one who is the ultimate atoning sacrifice for the sins of mankind? And has he come?

Stay tuned for the answers in the next post.

We were discussing my claim you called religions other than Calvinism "apostates". Which you did. Catholics, Lutherans and Jews. I told you you define Judaism in your narrow-minded literal Christian biblical framework. So you bring up Leviticus and blood sacrifice as to why Jews are "apostates"

I keep telling you literal interpretations of the bible are fraught with problems and Leviticus specifically is only a ancient primitive rule book not considered a major work of BELIEF of the Torah. Most Jews today don't do blood sacrifice.
By far one of the least important doctrines of Judaism.
Which is why I brought up Ecclesiastes!!

Do you also think we should stone witches and homosexuals?



No Jews today are known to publicly offer any kind of animal sacrifice or offerings, nor have Jews offered sacrifices since the second century C.E. There are Orthodox Jews in Israel who practice the techniques of ritual sacrifice, so that the knowledge will not be lost; a remembrance of the Pesach sacrifice was slaughtered in 5760 (2000 C.E.), within sight of the Temple Mount. But this is not at all the same thing as offering a sacrifice.

I am not staying tuned for more of your preposterous superstition.You are why people are leaving religion in droves.

You never answered....

Besides. What does Yahweh get out of a farm animal's blood?
Kinda barbaric for an all knowing, all powerful deity.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

We were discussing my claim you called religions other than Calvinism "apostates". Which you did. Catholics, Lutherans and Jews. I told you you define Judaism in your narrow-minded literal Christian biblical framework. So you bring up Leviticus and blood sacrifice as to why Jews are "apostates"

I keep telling you literal interpretations of the bible are fraught with problems and Leviticus specifically is only a ancient primitive rule book not considered a major work of BELIEF of the Torah. Most Jews today don't do blood sacrifice.
By far one of the least important doctrines of Judaism.
Which is why I brought up Ecclesiastes!!

Do you also think we should stone witches and homosexuals?



No Jews today are known to publicly offer any kind of animal sacrifice or offerings, nor have Jews offered sacrifices since the second century C.E. There are Orthodox Jews in Israel who practice the techniques of ritual sacrifice, so that the knowledge will not be lost; a remembrance of the Pesach sacrifice was slaughtered in 5760 (2000 C.E.), within sight of the Temple Mount. But this is not at all the same thing as offering a sacrifice.

I am not staying tuned for more of your preposterous superstition.You are why people are leaving religion in droves.

You never answered....

Besides. What does Yahweh get out of a farm animal's blood?
Kinda barbaric for an all knowing, all powerful deity.

Calvinism isn't a religion. Never said it was. Calvinism is simply systematic theology applied to the branch of theology called soteriology.

Re stoning: I think people who ask stupid, non-sequitur questions make great candidates for same.

You miss the point entirely to the gracious provision of animal sacrifices in the Law of Moses! The benefit was entirely to the repentant sinner offering the sacrifices in faith to YHWH.

[boxcar]

Mr. Hcap, as stated earlier, animal sacrifices were prescribed under the Law of Moses, even though scripture also teaches that such atoning sacrifices could never take away sin. These sacrifices were ordained of God to last only until the New Covenant was instituted and ratified in blood. Those animal sacrifices, therefore, served as symbolic rituals pointing to the ultimate sacrifice that was yet to come. They prefigured or foreshadowed what was to be the ultimate atoning reality.

I also pointed out a few months or so ago that no sinful human being can redeem his own life or the life of another sinner. And scripture tells us why:

Ps 49:8
8 the ransom for a life is costly ,
no payment is ever enough —
NIV

So, whatever God's plan was for providing the ultimate atoning sacrifice, for paying the ultimate ransom price, it must have meant that God had in mind something of infinite value -- something of inestimable worth -- something so valuable, so excellent that it was incapable of being measured. Scripture, of course, tells us what this something was.

There are two things that are beyond incredibly amazing in Ezekiel 16: a) the message of grace toward the end of this long chapter, and b) the unbelievable context in which this message was conveyed to this prophet to the Jewish Babylonian exiles -- Ezekiel himself being a deportee.

Not too long ago, I revealed who the woman dressed in scarlet and purple was who was sitting on the beast in Revelation 17. I said initially the "woman" represented the Old Covenant apostate nation of Israel, and that the ultimate manifestation of this woman would be the apostates within Christ's New Covenant church. I supported my position for the former by appealing to Ezekiel 16 and two chapters in Jeremiah. Before examining the message of grace toward the end of Ezekiel 16, let's briefly look at the context in which the message is found.

Ezekiel 16 is a scathing rebuke and condemnation of the [spiritual] whore Judahl! She was also called a "brazen prostitute" -- the lowest and worst of prostitutes among the nations because a prostitute usually receives a fee for her services, but Judah instead "paid her lustful lovers", i.e. the Gentile nations with whose gods she prostituted herself. Not only this, but the Gentile nations were far more faithful to their gods, since they did not abandon their gods for other gods, as Judah had.

Israel and Judah, being in a holy covenant relationship with YHWH, were supposed to be the LORD's pure, virgin bride, spiritually speaking. But they were anything but faithful and loyal in their covenant relationship to YHWH. Judah was particularly despicable, even offering up her children in the fire to the Gentile gods. So, now let's look at the unbelievably good message of God's grace against this historical backdrop.

Ezek 16:59-63
59 [i]"'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD.[b] 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
NIV

Two things I want to focus on: YHWH is speaking through the prophet and he says that HE will make atonement for the sins of the southern kingdom (Judah) and for the sins of their sisters in the northern kingdom (Israel). And the second item is that YHWH will make atonement after he establishes his "everlasting covenant" with them, i.e. the New Covenant, which is also called the eternal covenant (Heb 13:20).

As we're going to see, the Law of Moses was only a temporary shadow of the good things to come, this includes all the temple rituals mandated in that Law. For a more complete exposition of the Law, the priesthood, the rituals, etc., one should read Hebrews 7 thru 10. But here is chapter 10 in its entirety.

Heb 10
10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming — not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am — it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, O God.'"

8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

17 Then he adds:

"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another — and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while,

"He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
NIV

In verse 9 where the writer said that God set aside the first to establish the second, he's referring to the Law of Moses as being he "first" and the New Covenant as being the "second".

God Almighty himself condescended and came to earth and took on human form in his only Begotten Son Jesus Christ so that YHWH in Christ could make atonement for the sins of his people. And this was always the plan -- even long before the Fall of Mankind! This was the eternal plan. This is why the Psalmist said that no mere mortal can pay the redemption (ransom) price. It is far, far too costly. It took nothing less than the Great I AM to atone for the sins of his people. He was the ultimate atoning sacrifice. Now we can understand why no one can come to God except through the Son. And why no one can deny the Son and claim to have the Father, etc.

Rev 13:8
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.
RSV

[Actor]

Originally Posted by hcap

Do you also think we should stone witches and homosexuals?

This came up back in Religion I. He never gave a straight answer. I asked him if he believed that there are such things as witches and he said he did.

By the way, although the KJV translates Exodus 22:18 as "though shalt not suffer a witch to live," many other versions translate it as "do not allow a female sorcerer to live, i.e., warlocks are OK, witches are not. Kind of anti-feminist.

My guess is that boxcar would settle for lethal injection instead of stoning.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Actor

This came up back in Religion I. He never gave a straight answer. I asked him if he believed that there are such things as witches and he said he did.

By the way, although the KJV translates Exodus 22:18 as "though shalt not suffer a witch to live," many other versions translate it as "do not allow a female sorcerer to live, i.e., warlocks are OK, witches are not. Kind of anti-feminist.

My guess is that boxcar would settle for lethal injection instead of stoning.

מְכַשֵּׁפָה is feminine, מְכַשֵּׁף masculine. Thought being that a witch could tempt the righteous with sexual favors.

The correct translation is:

Don’t let a sorceress live.

BTW, it’s Exodus 22:17.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

מְכַשֵּׁפָה is feminine, מְכַשֵּׁף masculine. Thought being that a witch could tempt the righteous with sexual favors.

The correct translation is:

Don’t let a sorceress live.

BTW, it’s Exodus 22:17.

Who said this. GOD?

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Who said this. GOD?

Yep. He didn’t like witches.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Yep. He didn’t like witches.

As I recall...God was quite harsh in his dealings with adulterous women too.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

As I recall...God was quite harsh in his dealings with adulterous women too.

Yeah. One of my favorites.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by TJDave

BTW, it’s Exodus 22:17.

In the KJV it's Exodus 22:18. I specified the KJV.

Originally Posted by Actor

... the KJV translates Exodus 22:18 as "though shalt not suffer a witch to live," ...

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The irrefutable fact is that all ANE nations and cultures had temples or at least altars built to their gods and assigned priests to offer blood sacrifices to appease the anger of their gods.

Answer my question. How do you know this to be an "irrefutable fact"? It's a claim, ergo, the burden of proof is yours.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Mr. Hcap, as stated earlier, animal sacrifices were prescribed under the Law of Moses, even though scripture also teaches that such atoning sacrifices could never take away sin. These sacrifices were ordained of God to last only until the New Covenant was instituted and ratified in blood. Those animal sacrifices, therefore, served as symbolic rituals pointing to the ultimate sacrifice that was yet to come. They prefigured or foreshadowed what was to be the ultimate atoning reality.

Symbolic until the so-called "New Covenant" Why didn't Yahweh tell his priests of Leviticus.It was only symbolic? Or even of such a thing as the NEW versus the OLD?

Only Christians believe the church inherited God's promises to Israel. Not Judaism. Judaism continued to emphasize the Mosaic covenant, as recorded in the Torah and Talmud. You continue your non-Judaic Christian literal irrational biblical interpretation of being Jewish.

Leviticus is perhaps the most non-symbolic part of the bible.

[hcap]

SYMBOLIC you say?

Leviticus 4

3 “‘If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the Lord a young bull without defect as a sin offering[a] for the sin he has committed. 4 He is to present the bull at the entrance to the tent of meeting before the Lord. He is to lay his hand on its head and slaughter it there before the Lord. 5 Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull’s blood and carry it into the tent of meeting.6 He is to dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of it seven times before the Lord, in front of the curtain of the sanctuary. 7 The priest shall then put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense that is before the Lord in the tent of meeting. The rest of the bull’s blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 8 He shall remove all the fat from the bull of the sin offering—all the fat that is

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

This came up back in Religion I. He never gave a straight answer. I asked him if he believed that there are such things as witches and he said he did.

By the way, although the KJV translates Exodus 22:18 as "though shalt not suffer a witch to live," many other versions translate it as "do not allow a female sorcerer to live, i.e., warlocks are OK, witches are not. Kind of anti-feminist.

My guess is that boxcar would settle for lethal injection instead of stoning.

I gave a straight answer but your feeble mind doesn't remember. Here it is for the last time: Israel was a theocratic kingdom obstensibly ruled by God who gave Israel the Law of Moses which was their "constitution", as it were. The Law of Moses was the Israelites' law of the land! The Law covered all aspects of the nation's life, i.e. the people's vertical relationship with their covenant King YHWH, the people's horizontal relationship with their neighbor, religious life which entailed worship and all the stipulated cultic practices, dietary laws and finally civil life. There wasn't an aspect of life that wasn't covered in the Law of Moses.

One of the most important conditions to the Law was that obedience to their covenant God's holy law was required if the people hoped to thrive, prosper and remain in the Promised Land. This is why so many violations of the law were capital offenses requiring the ultimate penalty.

File this post away somewhere where you can find it and don't ask me about this subject again.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Answer my question. How do you know this to be an "irrefutable fact"? It's a claim, ergo, the burden of proof is yours.

Historians and archaeologists will tell you that all ANE peoples were polythesitic, and all of them built temples or altars to their gods to appease them with blood sacrfices. Google it.