Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Off Topic > Off Topic - General


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 06-01-2020, 10:34 PM   #5101
Actor
Librocubicularist
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
Causes is[sic] what we're talking about.
The title of the thread is "Religion."

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
If the universe were eternal, it would need no cause because there are only two kinds of existences: Eternal or temporal (finite).
"Temporal" does not mean "finite." Look it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
... very many changes are things coming into and going out of existence.
So you've read A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
Likewise, since God is eternal, he is not a caused entity.
Read Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
And since scripture ...
Proves nothing! We're done.
__________________
Sapere aude
Actor is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-01-2020, 10:39 PM   #5102
Actor
Librocubicularist
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
What caused the particle to come into existence?
Read The God Particle.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Particle-...s%2C157&sr=1-1
__________________
Sapere aude
Actor is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-01-2020, 10:43 PM   #5103
Actor
Librocubicularist
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Finite entities cannot create themselves.
Why not?

In any case we're talking about an infinite entity, viz., God, and there is no evidence that such an entity exists.
__________________
Sapere aude
Actor is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 09:50 AM   #5104
hcap
Registered User
 
hcap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
This is a very interesting point. A very sound argument can be made that NOTHING would or could exist, if an "infinite regress" of contingencies or conditions was a possibility. Lets take a cat for example.First, if the cat is dependent upon a finite number of conditions, then that means there is going to be a most fundamental condition (a last or terminating condition) in the series of conditions that the cat depends upon for its existence. For example, the cat is dependent upon the existence of its cells, which in turn are dependent upon amino acids and proteins, the amino acids and proteins depend on the existence of molecules, the molecules depend upon atoms, the atoms depend upon protons, the protons depend upon quarks, and so forth. With such a series, the quark (or something more fundamental) would be the terminating condition that the cat depends upon for its existence. Now, if the series regresses infinitely to more and more fundamental conditions that have the same existential status as the previous conditions, then the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly. But if the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly, then every hypothetical conditioned reality in the series would never have its conditions fulfilled and thus would never come into existence. ??
I believe it is our inability to grasp the concept of infinity that stumps us.

Everything we know and experience is "contingent" and shaped by our interaction with the finite. Both the "bottom up scientific" approach and the "top down religious" one have built in limitations of how we look at things.

It may be as the religious mystics who tried to report from alternate states of consciousness, beyond all words.

The bottom up scientific view, is more objective in not jumping to conclusions. But tends to limit the "holistic". The top down religious approach can draw on more intuitive avenues. But extends intuition into assumptions frequently proven factually wrong.

I prefer Albert Einstein's mix of materialism and spirituality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...noza's_God

Einstein had explored the idea that humans could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in George Sylvester Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great (1930), Einstein responded to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist. He explained:

Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.
------------------------------------------

I agree with most of this, but the Hindu vedantic philosophers also considered non-dualistic philosophy

Advaita Vedanta is a school of Hindu philosophy, is an appropach o spiritual realization in Indian tradition. The term Advaita refers to its idea that the true self, Atman, is the same as the highest "metaphysical" reality of the universe, Brahman. However, not separating Brahman, Atman, and material things into distinct components. Or contingencies.

As a tree contains all it's components. We divide it up into the trunk, branches, and leafs. An adequate analysis but frequently losing the what connects it all up.

We cannot help NOT seeing the parts and the whole simultaneously
__________________
The inmates have taken over the asylum.

Last edited by hcap; 06-02-2020 at 10:05 AM.
hcap is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 09:54 AM   #5105
boxcar
Registered User
 
boxcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor View Post
In other words, you don't know what caused it? You can't tell us in a few sentences or a paragraph? Or are we back to infinite regress again?
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
boxcar is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 09:57 AM   #5106
boxcar
Registered User
 
boxcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor View Post
The title of the thread is "Religion."

"Temporal" does not mean "finite." Look it up.

So you've read A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

Read Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett.

Proves nothing! We're done.
"Temporal" means temporary. Enduring for a time. Sounds pretty finite to me, since finite means subject to limitations.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
boxcar is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 02:00 PM   #5107
hcap
Registered User
 
hcap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
"Temporal" means temporary. Enduring for a time. Sounds pretty finite to me, since finite means subject to limitations.
Because someone defines something as being something or having a certain property, those definitions by themselves are merely circular.

If you define or describe yourself as able to fly, should anyone believe you because you declare it so? In most cases most rational beings would conclude the only "property" you may have, is at best the ability to exaggerate.

How do we know your "definition of a god" is also at best, no more than just an exaggeration??
__________________
The inmates have taken over the asylum.

Last edited by hcap; 06-02-2020 at 02:01 PM.
hcap is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 03:28 PM   #5108
Light
Veteran
 
Light's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor View Post
Why not?
A finite entity cannot create itself because it would have to have abilities that only the infinite has. For example a universe that has a birth has a death. How can that which is finite which means limited to a world of duality (birth and death) cause its own birth and existence from the dimension of death and non existence? Impossible.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor View Post
In any case we're talking about an infinite entity, viz., God, and there is no evidence that such an entity exists.
Because God is infinite it is important to understand the dimensional differences between infinity and the finite in comprehending God.

Because we are finite, our finite oriented brains cannot comprehend the concept of infinity. But if we can go "outside" our minds for a moment through a higher consciousness experience (through various means), we will find you can comprehend infinity because our higher consciousness is linked to the infinite. You cannot comprehend infinity with a finite brain.

Its similar to our dreams that speak a different language than our waking minds. We have no clue what our dreams were really about all night in our heads. If we can't even understand what our dreams are saying, how can we understand infinity? Only the consciousness made for dreams can understand it and that needs to be accessed to do so. Similarly with understanding the infinite or God.

Because of this dilemma of the finite not being able to comprehend the infinite, a lot of religions use "faith" to bypass comprehension of the incomprehensible infinite God. Personally I needed more than that. What happened to me was "proof" sent to me through "phenomena" in my life that transcended my belief that all there is was the finite.

You said you were agnostic. That's fine with me and i have no interest in persuading you to any religion or belief because I have a personal relationship with God and do not need a religion to tell me my place or yours. God shows me my place personally. I only respond because of what you claim that I disagree with, similar to boxcar with his zealous remarks. My experience disproves your claims of no God until proven. It also disproves boxcars claims of an angry God.

I found that the infinite does not play by the same rules as the finite and the misinterpretation of that is the source of different views on God from Atheism to hard core,(you're going to hell) believers.
Light is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 03:41 PM   #5109
boxcar
Registered User
 
boxcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap View Post
Because someone defines something as being something or having a certain property, those definitions by themselves are merely circular.

If you define or describe yourself as able to fly, should anyone believe you because you declare it so? In most cases most rational beings would conclude the only "property" you may have, is at best the ability to exaggerate.

How do we know your "definition of a god" is also at best, no more than just an exaggeration??
It's not my definition. It's the bible's.

Bbiblical theology is logical, violating no laws of logic, which is more than be said for athesitic materialism.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
boxcar is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 04:26 PM   #5110
Hank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor View Post
Quote:
Is the cat alive or dead?
The uncaused cause is the Higgs Boson, a.k.a., "the God particle."
Quote:
Should we worship the Higgs Boson?
Is the cat alive or dead? It does not matter.

Should we worship the Higgs Boson? Worship?
Hank is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 04:31 PM   #5111
Hank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap View Post
I believe it is our inability to grasp the concept of infinity that stumps us.

Everything we know and experience is "contingent" and shaped by our interaction with the finite. Both the "bottom up scientific" approach and the "top down religious" one have built in limitations of how we look at things.

It may be as the religious mystics who tried to report from alternate states of consciousness, beyond all words.

The bottom up scientific view, is more objective in not jumping to conclusions. But tends to limit the "holistic". The top down religious approach can draw on more intuitive avenues. But extends intuition into assumptions frequently proven factually wrong.

I prefer Albert Einstein's mix of materialism and spirituality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...noza's_God

Einstein had explored the idea that humans could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in George Sylvester Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great (1930), Einstein responded to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist. He explained:

Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.
------------------------------------------

I agree with most of this, but the Hindu vedantic philosophers also considered non-dualistic philosophy

Advaita Vedanta is a school of Hindu philosophy, is an appropach o spiritual realization in Indian tradition. The term Advaita refers to its idea that the true self, Atman, is the same as the highest "metaphysical" reality of the universe, Brahman. However, not separating Brahman, Atman, and material things into distinct components. Or contingencies.

As a tree contains all it's components. We divide it up into the trunk, branches, and leafs. An adequate analysis but frequently losing the what connects it all up.

We cannot help NOT seeing the parts and the whole simultaneously
Interesting, But does this argument, in your opinion "prove" or at least support the assertion that there must exist at least one non contingent or conditioned entity??

Last edited by Hank; 06-02-2020 at 04:33 PM.
Hank is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 04:39 PM   #5112
hcap
Registered User
 
hcap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
It's not my definition. It's the bible's.

Bbiblical theology is logical, violating no laws of logic, which is more than be said for athesitic materialism.
It is bad enough if it was only yours, even the worse if it was the bibles'. It is irrelevant. And besides the point.

You can not support the definition that god is eternal, but the universe is not, by just saying so. You may believe this or intuit it, but it is beyond pure intellectual theory, description and ordinary rationality. Just as the concept of infinity is. Wed can chip away around the edges of infinity mathematically, considering if one "infinity" may be greater or less than another but it is only the tip of the iceberg of what we do not know.

Change for instance denotes nothing but change. You have no way of knowing if an infinite being can or cannot chose to change at will.

Infinity must include all possibilities we can conceive of. Change or no change, doers not answer the infinity conundrum.
__________________
The inmates have taken over the asylum.

Last edited by hcap; 06-02-2020 at 04:46 PM.
hcap is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 05:21 PM   #5113
Actor
Librocubicularist
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
In other words, you don't know what caused it?
And neither do you!
__________________
Sapere aude
Actor is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 05:27 PM   #5114
Actor
Librocubicularist
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
It's not my definition. It's the bible's.
Interesting. You wouldn't happen to have the chapter and verse handy?
__________________
Sapere aude
Actor is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 06-02-2020, 05:34 PM   #5115
Actor
Librocubicularist
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
Is the cat alive or dead? It does not matter.

Should we worship the Higgs Boson? Worship?
At least we know that the Higgs exists.
__________________
Sapere aude
Actor is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.