Religion II

[Actor]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Far more critical for me is the indeterminacy of physical systems that quantum mechanics reveals. It follows that thought cannot be a wholly physical process, since our thoughts can have determinate meaning.

Define "determinate meaning."

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Scientists: Sodom destroyed by 'superheated blast from skies'

A scientific study aligns with the biblical account of the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by fire and brimstone from the heavens.

The book of Genesis tells the story of God sending two angels to save Lot and his family from a city where men demanded to “be intimate” with visiting men, one of the clearest biblical condemnations of homosexuality. In response, God “rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulfurous fire … out of heaven.”

It would be hundreds of years before life returned to the region.

And now scientists have found evidence of a cataclysmic event in that area, even if they do not attribute it to God.

More at:

http://www.wnd.com/2018/11/scientist...sFoPG4RjwTC.99

Can you point out any reputable scientific journal which has published these findings?

"WorldNetDaily (WND) is an American news and opinion website and online news aggregator which ... is known for promoting falsehoods ..." -- Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldNetDaily

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And the only logical inference to the Big Firecracker theory ...

As Einstein pointed out in his General Theory of Relativity, time is not the same for all observers. Of particular interest is the fact that time passes more slowly for observers in a stronger gravitational field. This has been verified. Experiments have been carried out using atomic clocks which are accurate down to the nanosecond. Two clocks are calibrated to sync them together. One clock is then carried to the top of mountain (where, of course, gravity is weaker), kept there for some time, and then returned to the same lab. As predicted, the clock which was taken to the top of the mountain has recored more time than the one left in the lab.

Of course satellites in orbit are in an even weaker gravitational field. GPS have to take this phenomenon into account, otherwise they don't work.

At this point the science deniers will check out.

Now take the case of a person falling into a black hole, feet first. When the person is far from the black hole all is well, but as he approaches the black hole the gravity pulling on his feet becomes stronger than that pulling on his head. The result is a force along his body. Eventually this force becomes so strong that it rips his body apart. Then his individual atoms are torn apart, then his primary particles are torn apart until nothing is left but quarks.

At least that is what an observer watching the poor fellow's demise would see from afar. The guy making the trip would see something different. As he falls into the black hole gravity becomes stronger and time slows down. He would grow old and die before ever feeling and kind of force ripping him apart. In fact he would never fall to the event horizon. The trip would take an eternity.

The Big Bang is an example of a white hole, i.e., a black hole in reverse. Although it's generally stated that the Big Bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago, that figure applies only to someone outside the event itself. Of course we are not outside the event. We are part of the universe. No matter how far back we go in time, there was a time before that. And a time before that. Ad infinitum. From our point of view the Big Bang occurred an infinite time ago. Ergo, the universe is eternal. The sum of all the energy in the universe has always been constant, that energy has alway been and had no beginning.

Questions?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Can you point out any reputable scientific journal which has published these findings?

"WorldNetDaily (WND) is an American news and opinion website and online news aggregator which ... is known for promoting falsehoods ..." -- Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldNetDaily

As if Wiki isn't. Most especially when it comes to matters of religion or Christianity, specifically.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

As Einstein pointed out in his General Theory of Relativity, time is not the same for all observers. Of particular interest is the fact that time passes more slowly for observers in a stronger gravitational field. This has been verified. Experiments have been carried out using atomic clocks which are accurate down to the nanosecond. Two clocks are calibrated to sync them together. One clock is then carried to the top of mountain (where, of course, gravity is weaker), kept there for some time, and then returned to the same lab. As predicted, the clock which was taken to the top of the mountain has recored more time than the one left in the lab.

Of course satellites in orbit are in an even weaker gravitational field. GPS have to take this phenomenon into account, otherwise they don't work.

At this point the science deniers will check out.

Now take the case of a person falling into a black hole, feet first. When the person is far from the black hole all is well, but as he approaches the black hole the gravity pulling on his feet becomes stronger than that pulling on his head. The result is a force along his body. Eventually this force becomes so strong that it rips his body apart. Then his individual atoms are torn apart, then his primary particles are torn apart until nothing is left but quarks.

At least that is what an observer watching the poor fellow's demise would see from afar. The guy making the trip would see something different. As he falls into the black hole gravity becomes stronger and time slows down. He would grow old and die before ever feeling and kind of force ripping him apart. In fact he would never fall to the event horizon. The trip would take an eternity.

The Big Bang is an example of a white hole, i.e., a black hole in reverse. Although it's generally stated that the Big Bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago, that figure applies only to someone outside the event itself. Of course we are not outside the event. We are part of the universe. No matter how far back we go in time, there was a time before that. And a time before that. Ad infinitum. From our point of view the Big Bang occurred an infinite time ago. Ergo, the universe is eternal. The sum of all the energy in the universe has always been constant, that energy has alway been and had no beginning.

Questions?

There can be no Time apart from Space and Matter (motion). There is no such thing as infinite Time. There can only be Time (succession of motion) or Eternity (no succession of motion).

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

As if Wiki isn't. Most especially when it comes to matters of religion or Christianity, specifically.

Are you saying that WND is a reputable scientific journal. Has this stuff passed peer review?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There can be no Time apart from Space and Matter (motion).

Why not? If so, how does that relate to what I posted? Sounds like a straw man.

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is no such thing as infinite Time.

How do you know that? What is your model? What is your evidence supporting the model?

Originally Posted by boxcar

There can only be Time (succession of motion) ...

Do you mean "motion" as Aquinas defined it?

Originally Posted by boxcar

... or Eternity (no succession of motion).

What is that supposed to mean?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Are you saying that WND is a reputable scientific journal. Has this stuff passed peer review?

I don't believe I said that. But they give enough info in the article for you to contact the science organization to which the finding was reported.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Why not? If so, how does that relate to what I posted? Sounds like a straw man.
How do you know that? What is your model? What is your evidence supporting the model?
Do you mean "motion" as Aquinas defined it?
What is that supposed to mean?

Buy a sundial and you'll learn how time MOVES. (Movement = Motion, which is Matter in Motion, which in turn requires Space through which Matter can Move).

And you're a scientist, huh?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is no such thing as infinite Time.

If "There is no such thing as infinite Time" then what the hell is Christianity selling? Isn't the idea that if you believe then your will live for an infinite time?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Buy a sundial ...

Why buy a sundial when I have an atomic clock from Wal Mart? They're cheap.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

If "There is no such thing as infinite Time" then what the hell is Christianity selling? Isn't the idea that if you believe then your will live for an infinite time?

No, when one believes s/he receives the free gift of eternal life. Infinite time is a oxymoron. Time only exists in this temporal realm.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Why buy a sundial when I have an atomic clock from Wal Mart? They're cheap.

Because with a sundial you can watch time MOVE au natural.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Because with a sundial you can watch time MOVE au natural.

With a sundial you can watch a shadow move. Movement is change of position divided by change of time. Your logic is circular.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No, when one believes s/he receives the free gift of eternal life.

Isn't "eternal life" a life without end? How can one have eternal life without infinite time?