Religion II

[hcap]

I repeat for all of us idiots.

Sufi tradition -- Hafiz (14th c. Persian Sufi poet): It is always a danger to the aspirant on the path when one begins to believe and act as if the ten thousand idiots who so long ruled and lived inside have all packed their bags and skipped town or died.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Ok I kinda figured out your question.

However you are jumping around trying to analyse too much without the underlying "body of knowledge" In my metaphorical understanding of god eradicating the Amalekite infants and farm animals, I drew upon an ancient tradition spoken about in many "paths" . That is the warning against the devious illusion that we are already of one mind, one identity.

We are not.

Lower Self: The Ten Thousand I`s
http://dangxia.org/englishfile/lower...nthousand.html

The lower self is a collection of attitudes, dreams, and mechanical habits that dwell within a man. There is not an unchangeable ‘I’ that is always the same. Rather, a man's many thoughts, emotions and sensations are his ‘many I`s’, which are traditionally numbered as ten thousand. As the ten thousand I's randomly assert themselves, each one mistakenly takes itself to be 'real I', and moreover, constantly interferes with the effort to simply Be Present. Jesus Christ said, "Thine enemies shall be they of your own household."

So the "principle" behind using the allegory/metaphor of using external events, and many characters to point to those "fragments" within our psyche is one of the most basic ways to understand scripture metaphorically.

Christian tradition--The Bible, Mark 5 - 9: And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

So the Amalekite "children" are inner fragments retaining leftover harmful characteristics of their "parents". The danger is we do not recognize they have the potential to grow and as I said "re-infect" us. In the simplest case if we try and stop a bad habit like smoking, or overheating, when we manage a small success and cut down on that habit, we forget how devious that habit may be. Walk into a room with a lot of smoking and after quitting, the smell alone opens a door for that "memory" just a tiny bit and for one instance for that sneaky "infant" to sneak back in.

"Oh maybe I can take a drag on a friends cigarette? Just one, just one drag" .

Or let med try a bite of that doughnut I just gave up. "Just one teny, tiny bite.Then I'll be good again"
.................................................. ..............

Zen Buddhist tradition-- Bodhidharma (First Partriarch of Chinese Zen Buddhism. 6th c.): Near and yet you cannot see them. This is the nature of the ten thousand things.

So...the bottom line: There is no objective way to determine when the on-off switch to allegory should be switched on or off?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So...the bottom line: There is no objective way to determine when the on-off switch to allegory should be switched on or off?

Yes there is. But first you must undrstand certain things.

I just pointed to part of the vast body of knowledge you must be willing to learn. And I illustrated what influenced me in the metaphorical understanding of the eradication of the Amalekite and Egyptian first born and infants.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Hank

I just noticed boxcar's "rep power" is higher than Gus and Hcap. This sums up pa ot quite nicely.

Does it?

How come hcap has so much rep power then? He is a huge Trump basher (biggest one here)...according to your view of PA OT, he probably should be at -1,000,000 by now, right Hank? How do you explain this?

Thaskalos also has a lot of rep power and always has...how do you explain that?

Maybe it's just you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I don't support any antisemitism. Never have. Never said I did. All I'm suggesting is the real possibility that you're misunderstanding Luther's spiritual writings since you're an inconsistent allegorist by taking Luther literally.

What objectively and logically determines when you deem religious/spiritual works worthy of allegory and when you don't?

Don't you see hcap? He's completely ignoring Luther's anti-Semitic writings...he's still talking about his "spiritual writings," which I assume, do not include Luther's obvious anti-Jew rants.

All these ancient misguided souls and nutbags sure have caused a lot of trouble through the ages, haven't they? And for what, exactly?

And people think they have all the answers. From religion, to the universe, to Trump, to Q, to 9/11, to everything....

Religion is a super-duper test case that proves people have the answers to absolutely NOTHING.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Does it?

How come hcap has so much rep power then? He is a huge Trump basher (biggest one here)...according to your view of PA OT, he probably should be at -1,000,000 by now, right Hank? How do you explain this?

Thaskalos also has a lot of rep power and always has...how do you explain that?

Maybe it's just you.

Have you figured out why I get a message about "You must spread rep points around before you give --- any points", the FIRST time I tried to give mostpost a point?

[PaceAdvantage]

I have no idea. If it truly was your first time approving of one of his posts, you should not get that message. You have to give other people (I forget how many) positive rep points before you can give it to the same person more than once.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I have no idea. If it truly was your first time approving of one of his posts, you should not get that message. You have to give other people (I forget how many) positive rep points before you can give it to the same person more than once.

It was only after reading mostpost saying he was proud of zero rep points. I never ever payed attention to "rep points" before and never gave anyone a point. Since then I have given others points and yes it does seem ok noe. But it is unforgettable.

Again it was the FIRST timed I tried to give anyone a point.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You left out of your non-response the question I asked. Here it is again:

What objectively and logically determines when you deem religious/spiritual works worthy of allegory and when you don't?

Some more of the vast body of evidence behind the allegorical, metaphorical understanding of the New Testament.


"Esoteric" Christianity.

Questions for us to ask. Who is deputy stewed, steward and the master?
.................................................. ....

Eastern teachings contain various allegorical pictures which endeavor to portray the nature of man’s being from this point of view.

“Thus, in one teaching, a man is compared to a house in which there is a multitude of servants but no master and no steward. The servants have all forgotten their duties; no one wants to do hat he ought; everyone tries to be master, if only for a moment; and, in this kind of disorder, the house is threatened with grave danger. The only chance of salvation is for a group of the more sensible servants to meet together and elect a temporary steward, that is, a deputy steward . This deputy steward can then put the other servants in their places, and make each do his own work: the cook in the kitchen, the coachman in the stables, the gardener in the garden, and so on. In this way the ‘house’ can be got ready for the arriva of the real steward who will, in his turn, prepare it for the arrival of the master. “

The comparison of a man to a house awaiting the arrival of the master is frequently met with in Eastern teachings which have preserved traces of ancient knowledge, and, as we know, the subject appears under various forms in many of the parables in the Gospels.

“But even the clearest understanding of his possibilities will not bring man any nearer to their realization. In order to realize these possibilities he must have a very strong desire for liberation and be willing to sacrifice everything, to risk everything, for the sake of this liberation.”

...G. I. Gurdjieff, as
quoted by P.D. Ouspensky from

In Search Of The Miraculous

ALSO

In Gurdjieff’s household analogy, the Steward is the chief servant, the one in charge of putting the household in order, readying it for the arrival of the Master, understands that a higher, more unified State of Being exists and it can value and hold an aim for achieving that Higher State.

Through the commands of the Steward doing battle with “the Devil”, flashes of the Higher State of Being begin to appear. In fact, the energy created through this struggle is essential to the process. After its hard fought battle, it is only a deep humility that can ultimately defeat Mr. self-love and Madame Vanity.

Internally, a silent whisper “Be”, a humble request from a faithful servant, who wordlessly surrenders and patiently waits for the Master to appear.

Luke 12:42 : And the Lord said, who then is that faithful and wise steward, who his lord shall make ruler over his household



.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Yes there is. But first you must undrstand certain things.

I just pointed to part of the vast body of knowledge you must be willing to learn. And I illustrated what influenced me in the metaphorical understanding of the eradication of the Amalekite and Egyptian first born and infants.

Ohh.. a VAST BODY of knowledge. Okay gotcha. Like a lifetime of ever-learning.

Well, let me clue you AGAIN on your allegory about Christ's crucifixion and all the events surrounding that: Your allegory gets you into plenty of trouble because the ancient Jews have an awful lot of explaining to do on how they allowed a nothing-burger, allegorical fictional story get so out of control that a small band of superstitious, religious, Christ following, ignorant, knuckle-dragging neanderthals' wild and crazy message was allowed to blossom into a world-wide religion that blasphemed the Jews' Yahweh and and cast the Jews in the worst possible light possible. How did that happen? Were all the leaders of the religious establishment asleep at the switch? Or just downright stupid?
Why aren't there reams a reams of ancient Jewish writings refuting this rag-tag heretical sect and defending the integrity and validity of Old Covenant Judaism, which clearly was under attack by their gospel message?

Also, you need to explain how the religious establishment basically believed in a coming Messiah? Or are we supposed to believe that they believed only in the allegory of the coming Messiah -- or in the actual, future coming of the Messiah himself who would descend from the family line of King David?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Don't you see hcap? He's completely ignoring Luther's anti-Semitic writings...he's still talking about his "spiritual writings," which I assume, do not include Luther's obvious anti-Jew rants.

All these ancient misguided souls and nutbags sure have caused a lot of trouble through the ages, haven't they? And for what, exactly?

And people think they have all the answers. From religion, to the universe, to Trump, to Q, to 9/11, to everything....

Religion is a super-duper test case that proves people have the answers to absolutely NOTHING.

I have more answers stuck under my pinky nail than you have in your entire body.

Read my last post to Hcap, Mr. Wordly Answer Man. I would love to read your explanation, which I'm certain would make about as much sense as an asylum-full of "nutbags".

[hcap]

You asked me what was necessary to discriminate allegory from the literal. I told you there are certain things to learn. Wheter that takes a lifetime is up to us. I also said self knowledge was a prerequisite. So I am giving you some of that knowledge, NOT usually considered in popular versions of religion. However if you are not open to this stuff let's drop it and I'll go do something else. Being open sometimes means not overly clinging to the usual.

Btwe, you have no idea of what ancient, or present day Jews believe. In fact there is a theory that the "passion of Jesus" was only a re-enactment of their ancient hidden beliefs. In order to fulfill their law.

After all Jesus and his students and disciples were all Jewish.
.................................................
Being open.

1. A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You asked me what was necessary to discriminate allegory from the literal. I told you there are certain things to learn. Wheter that takes a lifetime is up to us. I also said self knowledge was a prerequisite. So I am giving you some of that knowledge, NOT usually considered in popular versions of religion. However if you are not open to this stuff let's drop it and I'll go do something else. Being open sometimes means not overly clinging to the usual.

Btwe, you have no idea of what ancient, or present day Jews believe. In fact there is a theory that the "passion of Jesus" was only a re-enactment of their ancient hidden beliefs. In order to fulfill their law.

After all Jesus and his students and disciples were all Jewish.
.................................................
Being open.

1. A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

Oh...I do know what the ancient Jews believed -- certainly the Jews of Jesus' day.

So, this theory of "hidden beliefs" (top secret grade, were they?) got the Jews into a heap of trouble and allowed this rag-tag sect of Jesus followers to ignite the entire world ablaze with the gospel message? In other words, those "smart" rabbis of Jesus' day all but shot themselves in the head?

Really?

Ever hear of Occam's Razor? Apparently not.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...I do know what the ancient Jews believed -- certainly the Jews of Jesus' day.

So, this theory of "hidden beliefs" (top secret grade, were they?) got the Jews into a heap of trouble and allowed this rag-tag sect of Jesus followers to ignite the entire world ablaze with the gospel message? In other words, those "smart" rabbis of Jesus' day all but shot themselves in the head?

Really?

Ever hear of Occam's Razor? Apparently not.

I am not going to debate my take on scripture and spirituality with you. I just presented a significant allegory of one individual as a "house" without a master or "lord". That in itself connotes huge changes to who and what the "lord" is. It does not negate an external lord, but if you would HAVE let me finish, I might had expanded the allegory.

"As above so below"
The leaf is the image of the tree.

You asked how to determine how to know when to use allegory and metaphor. I tried to explain. It's ok you don't want to actually listen, but I have given up on keeping you on the topic we are discussing.

Need I remind you you led me on a Wild goose chase for pages avoiding your claim Luther's anti-semitism actually used allegory and not literal bullshit.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I have more answers stuck under my pinky nail than you have in your entire body.

You have the answers to nothing. In the grand scheme of things, the entire sum of human existence knows relatively NOTHING about the universe. Mostly theories that evolve or devolve over time, and a handful of cold hard facts.

Given all that, YOU, Mr. Boxcar, declare that YOU hold the answers to life's greatest mysteries. The only thing you are good for is a laugh and a shake of the head from time to time.

And I shudder to think what is actually stuck to the underside of your pinky nail after all that ass scratching monkeying around you do all day here in off-topic.