Religion II

[hcap]

Oh how could I forget.

The Book of Revelation employs allegory, however, where such references as “woman” (12:1), “creatures” (4:6; 19:4), and a “white horse” (6:2; 19:11) must be interpreted as having a deeper-than-literal meaning. So many allegories, in fact, appear in this book, that, due to these mysterious figures, Martin Luther, who preferred plain teachings to obscure ones, did not include Revelation among the first-class books of his canon.

[PaceAdvantage]

hcap, I am astonished that you keep wasting your time with this fool boxcar.

He has completely exposed himself for what he is, time and again...especially as it relates to this recent Luther talk.

He has absolutely no defense of Luther, except for some fantasy in his head...in actuality, I'm sure he agrees with every word Luther wrote about the Jews. It couldn't be more obvious.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

hcap, I am astonished that you keep wasting your time with this fool boxcar.

He has completely exposed himself for what he is, time and again...especially as it relates to this recent Luther talk.

He has absolutely no defense of Luther, except for some fantasy in his head...in actuality, I'm sure he agrees with every word Luther wrote about the Jews. It couldn't be more obvious.

He and I have a more basic disagreement..
Originally I was not going to pursue his absurd contention that Luther should be understood in an allegorical sense. Allegory and metaphor is a large part of how I understand all religions, if one can get past all the distortions.

Knowing he would attempt to distract from Luther's obvious antisemitism. He would get me talking about my method, which I have mentioned many, many times before. And which we have fought over. I was NOT interested in writing it all over again.

However, I then realized one of my older posts with only slight change would cover his challenge to me.

After pulling back from my anger at his obvious ploy, I figured he still had no case whatsoever. And I took his woefully bad feeble challenge

I think he has no choice now, but to realize how vile Luther was. Of course getting boxcar to renounce antisemitism will never happen

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

As I said Christians confused the allegory of Jews giving up Jesus to the Romans with an actual event. Assuming it was history. The Jews, scribes and pharisees represented mistaking the letter of the law with the spirit of the law. Which in fact Jesus allegorically came to fix. The entire fable only has some rough correlation to the actual archaeological and historical events of the time and place. Just like all of scripture. Look at it more as a "cookbook" to practically bake a spiritual "cake"

It seems you are a "Jew" in the allegorical sense. You constantly confuse the map for the territory. Analyzing using only your head without your heart.

Like the kids in elementary school memorizing baseball statistics and players names, never learning to play ball. Try yoga or meditation


More on Luther's lack of depth, and allegory, and more of his vile antisemitism aftereffects

The prevailing scholarly view since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust.[23] Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it, on Streicher's first encounter with the treatise in 1937, as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[24] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[25] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history."[26]

And as I have said, you have confused Luther's religious/spiritual writings with him actually hating the Jews.

See how easy it is to be so dishonest and sweep inconvenient truths under a rug called Allegory.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

hcap, I am astonished that you keep wasting your time with this fool boxcar.

He has completely exposed himself for what he is, time and again...especially as it relates to this recent Luther talk.

He has absolutely no defense of Luther, except for some fantasy in his head...in actuality, I'm sure he agrees with every word Luther wrote about the Jews. It couldn't be more obvious.

The the only fools around here are people like yourself who don't see what I'm doing with Hcap by exposing his hypocrisy that he tries to cleverly conceal with his god Allegory.

[hcap]

Hey bunky maybe I don't know much about Luthr's so-called "spiritual" teachings, but using allegory is not one of them, no matter what you claim

See my post##8281

Btw, you never explained one of his vile antisemitic sayings using an allegorical interpretation as you promised you would.

Why not?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by hcap

Hey bunky maybe I don't know much about Luthr's so-called "spiritual" teachings, but using allegory is not one of them, no matter what you claim

See my post##8281

Btw, you never explained one of his vile antisemitic sayings using an allegorical interpretation as you promised you would.

Why not?

Probably because you didn't answer some long ago asked question of his...he loves to play these games when he can't answer a question to HIS liking.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Probably because you didn't answer some long ago asked question of his...he loves to play these games when he can't answer a question to HIS liking.

If he does not answer, he should not show his face again.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Probably because you didn't answer some long ago asked question of his...he loves to play these games when he can't answer a question to HIS liking.

I did answer it yesterday. Pay attention. I used Hcap's one-size-fits-all Amalekite allegory. Easy peasy.

I mean...if Hcap can use allegory to explain what he thinks was God's genocide on the Amalekites, then Shirley, I can use that same allegory to explain lesser sins of Luther's so-called vile name calling.

But I do have one question for both you and Hcap, in light of something Hcap said about Jesus' crucifixion, since he bragged on all the smarts of modern rabbis who also subscribe to the allegorical method of interpreting scripture. But before getting to this question, indulge me while I lay its foundation.

Since both of you Shirley disavow all Christ's miracles, his crucifixion at the hands of the Romans because the Jews unjustly delivered him up to them to be murdered, and, of course, Christ's bodily resurrection, then quite obviously Hcap's "smart" rabbis must believe that the entire Christian Faith is not based on historical facts that actually occurred in time and space, but rather the Christian Faith is a fictional story. Since this must be the case, then one is led to wonder at the unbelievable remarkable dullness of the first century "rabbis" (at that time known as priests, high priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Sanhedrin, etc.), for permitting this fictional, make-believe, fairy tale story of Christ's death, burial and resurrection to get entirely out of control -- so much out of control that, according to Hcap, it darned near wiped out all Jews! After all, he has claimed that Christians have been persecuting and killing Jews for the last 2,000 years!

You guys might want to avail yourself of my multi-part argument that I made to refute Actor's nonsense that Jesus Christ never existed in time and space. In principle, the argument applies with equal force to anyone who "only" denies the historical events of Jesus's life, as well. The relevant posts are 5705-16-25-26. And this brings me to the YUGE $64. question.

Since all the recorded events in the Gospels of Jesus' life are fictional, how in the world did the Jewish religious establishment of Jesus' day allow all the vile, blasphemous claims of the first century believers against the Jews' God and against Jews themselves, since early believers clearly preached Jesus Christ crucified, died, buried and resurrected -- and his death came by the hands of the Jews! How could the first century Jews have allowed that "little brush fire" of the Gospel to spread uncontrollably throughout the entire world? Why aren't there reams and reams of first century Jewish writings refuting the fake, phony, false Gospel message?

Not so smart of them, huh? All this alleged fake stuff being preached and taught by first century believers, and we have no record that the Jewish religious authorities wrote anything to refute it? Could it be that they didn't in order to fulfill their own curse which they glibly pronounced upon themselves and their posterity!?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

If he does not answer, he should not show his face again.

I answered, Humpty. I borrowed your one-size-fits-all Amalekite allegory, remember.

As I told PA, if you can use that allegory to explain God's alleged genocide against the Amalekites, then Shirely I can use to explain something far less serious about Luther's alleged vile name calling against Jews.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Hey bunky maybe I don't know much about Luthr's so-called "spiritual" teachings, but using allegory is not one of them, no matter what you claim

How would you know that? Don't all enlightened people know that virtually all scripture is allegory? Seems to me, Luther would have taken his cue from scripture -- the Amalekites, the Exodus, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, etc., etc.,, etc., etc.

[hcap]

You are full of it. You can not take my allegasrical, metaphorical interpretation yo fit your antisemitism.It is not meant for anything Luther babbled. Just your cheap shot to copy my specific interpretation since you cannot avoid explain Luther's crap other than as anti-Semitic

You said the following

Originally Posted by boxcar

If you can allegorize anything in scripture you want to suit your whims and fancy, I can also allegorize anything I want.

Originally Posted by boxcar

You can't Luther literally. He must be understood allegorically. He's talking strictly about his inner conflicts which he likens to the conflicts the Jews had with Jesus.

So we can't take Luther literally? ok
First explain Luthr's aversion to allegory.

[I]https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/allegory

The Book of Revelation employs allegory, however, where such references as “woman” (12:1), “creatures” (4:6; 19:4), and a “white horse” (6:2; 19:11) must be interpreted as having a deeper-than-literal meaning. So many allegories, in fact, appear in this book, that, due to these mysterious figures, Martin Luther, who preferred plain teachings to obscure ones, did not include Revelation among the first-class books of his canon.

When I "internalize" external events as models for inner work themes, there is no way to "to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools inwardly. Taking "Jewish synagogues" or "to offer no protection to Jews on highways" makes any sense as inner themes or images, allegorically or metaphorically.

When I postulated dealing with "remnants" of a temporarily defeated "disease", the remnants were small leftovers of a larger opponent. In one case the Amalikites, in the other pharaoh's Egypt. To use all Jews as remnants of a defeated opponent, which is according to you, all previous Jews is nonsensical.

As I said your ridiculous one size fits all, is just that, ridiculous.
My metaphor was meant as simply a means to be on guard against assuming we won the battle. So false pride does not creep in. So what is Luther warning us about?

Obviously all Jews.

If you can,"allegorize" these .

Section XI of the treatise Luther advises Protestants to carry out seven remedial actions. These are

1-to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them;
2-to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians;
3-for Jewish religious writings to be taken away;
4-for rabbis to be forbidden to preach;
5-to offer no protection to Jews on highways;
6-for usury to be prohibited and for all silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert; and
7-to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow.[9]

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are full of it. You can not take my allegasrical, metaphorical interpretation yo fit your antisemitism.

And you cannot take my sensible sense, context-sensitive interpretation of scripture and turn its plain meaning inside out to suit your antichrist, antichristian, bigoted worldview.

And by the way, Revelation is not allegory by definition of this term.

It is not meant for anything Luther babbled. Just your cheap shot to copy my specific interpretation since you cannot avoid explain Luther's crap other than as anti-Semitic

Allegory itself is very often a cheap and imbecilic way for you to explain the inconvenient, sensible sense truth for very a large number of scriptures.

As I said the other day...what's good for the goosey should be good for the gander -- except for people like yourself who have double standards.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And you cannot take my sensible sense, context-sensitive interpretation of scripture and turn its plain meaning inside out to suit your antichrist, antichristian, bigoted worldview.

.

You are a liar.

Go ahead. One allegorical explanation for any of Luther's antisemitism I listed from....

On the Jews and Their Lies
As you promised........... .

Section XI of the treatise Luther advises Protestants to carry out seven remedial actions. These are

1-to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them;
2-to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians;
3-for Jewish religious writings to be taken away;
4-for rabbis to be forbidden to preach;
5-to offer no protection to Jews on highways;
6-for usury to be prohibited and for all silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert; and
7-to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow.[9]

All the rest of your nonsense is a distraction because you obliviously can't

[hcap]

More of Luther......From his Vile book. How can any one in their right mind support this garbage? Let alone think their is any profound wisdom in it.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...heir-lies-quot

I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.
* * *

He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today.
* * *

Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools...
* * *

Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people ... their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain.
* * *

Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments...
* * *

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self*glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.
* * *

Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch*thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.
* * *

However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath.