Religion II

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by hcap

The Tower of Babel is an echo of Perennial philosophy (Latin: philosophia perennis) also referred to as Perennialism and perennial wisdom, is a perspective in modern (and ancient by other names) spirituality, that views each of the world's religious traditions as sharing a single, metaphysical truth or origin from which all esoteric and exoteric knowledge and doctrine has grown.

Buddhism also has "the Wheel Of Buddha"



On the external scale it expresses this variety of ways using the radial spokes to symbolize different paths. What I find most interesting is that as we move closer to the universal center inwardly, we also move closer to others traveling towards that center along different paths, the differences separating the ways diminish and we can communicate more clearly.

Almost the Tower of Babel in reverse. Our inner fragmentation or unity may be scaled up, and vice versa, or scaled down.

As above so below

Repair begins within and occasionally moves out into the outer world. The Abrahamic traditions at least popularly, use a personal god to symbolize unification. The emotional content is quite powerful whether one realizes the symbolic content. I always felt bypassing the "structural" or intellectual analyzation that I am quite fond of, in favor of a more direct sharing of compassion and love, may be the starting point for both inner and outer ecumenicism.



I often find Light expressing this direct sharing.

Attempting this direct sharing of the awe of transcendental experiences, although tough can be related to, easier than theory. Music, art, great literature help.

Theory is still great for "orientation"

I took some time to review and digest your posts, before I responded. I agree about universal truths, the repair starting with the individual willing to transform (change his ways) and even the confusion of the map for the territory. However, at some point we need to address the territory, without a territory there is no map of it.

So lets keep it simple. It seems one of these truths is that mankind (humanity) had been united and it has become splintered. According to your belief/philosophy when or how was mankind united? After we determine the truthfulness of this unity, then we can discuss,the source of disunity or splintering of mankind and how does this disunity actually exhibits itself in human behavior.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

I took some time to review and digest your posts, before I responded. I agree about universal truths, the repair starting with the individual willing to transform (change his ways) and even the confusion of the map for the territory. However, at some point we need to address the territory, without a territory there is no map of it.

So lets keep it simple. It seems one of these truths is that mankind (humanity) had been united and it has become splintered. According to your belief/philosophy when or how was mankind united? After we determine the truthfulness of this unity, then we can discuss,the source of disunity or splintering of mankind and how does this disunity actually exhibits itself in human behavior.

I can not tell you exactly when or where. There is no absolute historical or archaeological evidence, much like events in the bible. The best we can do is try to "perceive" thematic commonalities which manage to survive in the midst of gigantic games of historical, philosophical, religious "telephone"

We are standing along the shore of a river. We occasionally witness large waves emanating from very large "boulders" dropped out in the middle of the river, thousands of years ago.
We realize some major impact occurred, but cannot see the impact directly. Only the waves. However we may talk to and read accounts of others seeing impacts along other sections of the shoreline and compare notes.

I think I deal with my Jewish upbringing differently than Christians here deal with their Christian upbringing. I fought my rabbis early on their limited literal minded ant-scientific mindset. Luckily I encountered Jewish mysticism as I grew older. Which encouraged me to examine mysticism of many other traditions.

In response to Gus's dissatisfaction of lack of "progress" here I proposed a ecumenical view of many religions versus only different Christian denominations. I base my overall understanding of the once unified global religion-philosiphy on my familiarity with their commonalities. Also as a student of a Fourth Way school for many years, I am also familiar with what Gurdjieff, said about the ancient sources he claimed to be the origins of the "fragmented" teaching he reconstituted.

However, it is noteworthy my specific school, an offshoot of P.D.Ouspensky, Gurdjieff's renowned student's advice (before he died), to his students to seek out the esoteric sources of the Fourth Way.

Which was done before I joined.

They succeeded in connecting to a Hindu teacher and then a Sufi dervish order. Both sources along with the original Gurdjieff, Ouspensky teachings combine major principles from diverse backgrounds without contradictions.

As I have said I have no specific historical evidence archaeological evidence. Other than pointing to ancient commonalities in Hindu Sankhya philosophy, along with the Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians and Persians and Hebrews and then Christians.

The mystical aspects of all point to the center or hub of the Wheel of Buddha symbol I posted.

However, at some point we need to address the territory, without a territory there is no map of it.

The starting point are maps. Describing the actual territory requires a bunch of maps. We call it words and language. How did Christian mystics describe the territory other than in poetic images. Which are more apropos than just saying God, or the Dive.

We use what we can, but can not afford to get stuck worshiping maps

[Hank]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And Jesus (Last Adam) relied on strength of the Holy Spirit to pass the test that the First Adam failed.

Moreover, Jesus did not need to be born again, since he is The Life. He did not enter this world [spiritually] stillborn, as all of us do.

I would suggest you pluck out the "point" from your own eye before telling me I have missed something.

I rest my case.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Hank

I rest my case.

It appears your case is so heavy, it has crushed your skull, and now all the mush is oozing out.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Biblical Christianity is not another self-help, do-it-yourself religion of the world. To be born again (raised from our spiritual tombs) is nothing short of a miracle of God.

This is where your profound ignorance of other religions, traditions, and "way" blinds you.

If I remember correctly, you started BOTH of the religious threads. How, can you profess to speak of religion when you close yourself off from over 2/3 of the rest of the world. In fact you do not even know Catholicism very well. "The Roman Catholic Church makes up 50 percent of that total, with Protestants -- including Anglicans and non-denominational churches -- at 37 percent and Orthodox at 12 percent"

It's one thing to follow one path, but another to constantly 'judge" others ignorant of the essence of those teachings not kn wing anything of them. Other ways are not just trendy or chic or self-help, do-it-yourself religions.

Nor is Christianity devoid of self helping.

I think you do not know what the concept of self means, or just

how "self" may lead to non-self.

A Jewish sentiment...

"Faith, in the biblical sense, seems to be as much about getting and giving God our full attention as it is about anything else. The ancient covenant is based on devoting ourselves to God to the exclusion of other systems of belief, and in return we expect and need God’s attention".

How can we attract God attention caught up in, and worshiping our own little selves?

Did you ever consider the most common form of idolatry is worshiping our own "false selves"?

Quite a few of the other other religion stress humility

It behooves us to be able to distinguish a proud false self from a self that is wiling to move closer and merge with god. Real self-help does not use that little selfish non-humble false self to do that merging with the divine.

However some of those little fragments of our being can be shifted to face in another direction. When enough give up their own interests, they can unify, and like lost sheep, humble themselves and accept a "shepherd" along the way to the divine.

As above so below

In many other ways, a guiding figure or principle is humbly called on to orchestrate the outer and inner chorus.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by hcap

If I remember correctly, you started BOTH of the religious threads.
.

Wrong. boxcar did not start the first Religion thread.
Some other member, I don't remember who, started it as religion was popping up often in other threads and that member thought it deserved a thread of its own.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

This is where your profound ignorance of other religions, traditions, and "way" blinds you.

If I remember correctly, you started BOTH of the religious threads. How, can you profess to speak of religion when you close yourself off from over 2/3 of the rest of the world. In fact you do not even know Catholicism very well. "The Roman Catholic Church makes up 50 percent of that total, with Protestants -- including Anglicans and non-denominational churches -- at 37 percent and Orthodox at 12 percent"

It's one thing to follow one path, but another to constantly 'judge" others ignorant of the essence of those teachings not kn wing anything of them. Other ways are not just trendy or chic or self-help, do-it-yourself religions.

Nor is Christianity devoid of self helping.

I think you do not know what the concept of self means, or just

how "self" may lead to non-self.

A Jewish sentiment...

"Faith, in the biblical sense, seems to be as much about getting and giving God our full attention as it is about anything else. The ancient covenant is based on devoting ourselves to God to the exclusion of other systems of belief, and in return we expect and need God’s attention".

How can we attract God attention caught up in, and worshiping our own little selves?

Did you ever consider the most common form of idolatry is worshiping our own "false selves"?

Quite a few of the other other religion stress humility

It behooves us to be able to distinguish a proud false self from a self that is wiling to move closer and merge with god. Real self-help does not use that little selfish non-humble false self to do that merging with the divine.

However some of those little fragments of our being can be shifted to face in another direction. When enough give up their own interests, they can unify, and like lost sheep, humble themselves and accept a "shepherd" along the way to the divine.

As above so below

In many other ways, a guiding figure or principle is humbly called on to orchestrate the outer and inner chorus.

No, you do not remember correctly. I did not start the original religion thread.

Also, I don't speak for all religions. I speak for biblical Christianity. However, I know enough about the world's religions to know that none of them, save for God's revealed religion in the bible, teach that man is saved solely by God's grace alone through faith. A person must be born again before he can see the kingdom of God. And to be born again, means to be "born from above" -- born by the Spirit above.

In John 3, Jesus chided Nicodemus for not understanding his teaching. This is what he said:

John 3:9-10
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?
NASB

Evidently, Jesus thought that his teaching wasn't something new -- wasn't something that Jesus just made up on the fly -- on the spot. Jesus must have been thinking that his own teaching finds its roots in the OT. But did it? Absolutely! The doctrine of regeneration is no different than any of the other major doctrines. Its roots are also firmly planted in the OT.

The New Covenant promise of God indwelling his people through the Holy Spirit in Ezk 36:22ff. is immediately followed by the graphic prophetic utterances of chapter 37 that depict the First and Second Resurrections of God's people. I'm going to quote the entire chapter because it so important to understand.

Ezek 37:1-6
37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 And He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, Thou knowest." 4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.' 5 "Thus says the Lord God to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6 'And I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin, and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.'"
NASB

Notice the remarkable similarity to the creation of Adam in the Garden. God "breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul (Gen 2:7). But let's continue.

Ezek 37:11-28
11Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' 12 "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God," Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14 "And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it," declares the Lord.'"

15 The word of the Lord came again to me saying, 16 "And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, 'For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions'; then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.' 17 "Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. 18 "And when the sons of your people speak to you saying, 'Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?' 19 say to them,' Thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."' 20 "And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. 21 "And say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God," Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 "And they will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

24 "And My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them. 25 "And they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons, and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant shall be their prince forever. 26 "And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 "My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 "And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."'"
NASB

"My servant David" is none other than the Son of David Jesus Christ. And the "covenant" that God will make is the eternal New Covenant, which the Son of David instituted at the Last Supper and ratified in his blood on the Cross.

And the whole "land" thing totally threw Mr. Light for a loop because he doesn't understand why God waited fulfill his prophecy until after the exile of the Jews came to and end and they were restored back to the land. The land was extremely important due to the Gospel and to the institution of the New Covenant! Salvation is from the Jews (Jn 4:22)! The Gospel of Jesus Christ went out to the ends of the earth starting from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria (Act 1:8).

Finally, the Second Resurrection will be a physical one and take place at the Second Coming when Jesus raises all the saints from the dead. This will be the ultimate fulfillment of Chapter 37 and in fact, all the New Covenant promises.

This is what Nicodemus should have understood. All this was laid out in the OT.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Wrong. boxcar did not start the first Religion thread.
Some other member, I don't remember who, started it as religion was popping up often in other threads and that member thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Sorry, the first was Spiderman.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by hcap

Sorry, the first was Spiderman.

Spiderman started the Religion thread...and then never posted in it again. Pretty smart guy, if you ask me.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Also, I don't speak for all religions. I speak for biblical Christianity. However, I know enough about the world's religions to know that none of them, save for God's revealed religion in the bible, teach that man is saved solely by God's grace alone through faith. A person must be born again before he can see the kingdom of God. And to be born again, means to be "born from above" -- born by the Spirit above.

You do not not understand that "saving" is not the only way to the divine. It is a Christian term only defined in narrow Christian jargon.

Other terms from other ways indeed are jargon-istic as well. But I think you should consider "a rose by any other name smells as sweet"

[hcap]

Box, I will not debate your endless biblical passages.
One or two at a time please. Each requires more thought than you think.

How about something from your own life and understanding instead?
Even better how about addressing my observation?

I think you do not know what the concept of self means, or just

how "self" may lead to non-self.

[hcap]

I am reminded of:

Robert S De Ropp "The Master Game"

https://selfdefinition.org/psycholog...aster-Game.pdf

...The transformation of an ego-centered being to a free being does not take place either easily or quickly. One is converted into the other gradually, by a series of stages, and each stage carries with it its own dangers and difficulties. The transformation begins when one of the selves in a man's personality (the Seeker) develops an awareness of the state of sleep, or, alternatively, a hunger for the higher state of consciousness ("Taste of the Infinite").

The Seeker forms as a result of the working in man of the will to meaning and the will to self-transcendence.
The self or group of selves that comprise the Seeker form a definite force in the personality, creating a ferment, a restlessness, a dissatisfaction with all the games that have previously proved satisfying.
...............................................

My original take on reading this years ago......

"All pursuits in life are "games", however the Master Game may lead to no games"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You do not not understand that "saving" is not the only way to the divine. It is a Christian term only defined in narrow Christian jargon.

Other terms from other ways indeed are jargon-istic as well. But I think you should consider "a rose by any other name smells as sweet"

Actually, salvation (in all its form) it is a biblical term -- employed in both the Old and New Testaments.

Furthermore, the New Covenant promises in the OT are precisely about salvation! They're telling everyone who has "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" what God will do for and to his people to restore them to Himself.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Actually, salvation (in all its form) it is a biblical term -- employed in both the Old and New Testaments.

Furthermore, the New Covenant promises in the OT are precisely about salvation! They're telling everyone who has "ears to hear" and "eyes to see" what God will do for and to his people to restore them to Himself.

Jesus performing the salvation is not in the OT, unless you convert Moses or Noah into a similar figure. Which you may. But the NT took off the runway, "exclusifying" Jesus as the "only way". That in itself is narrow.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Jesus performing the salvation is not in the OT, unless you convert Moses or Noah into a similar figure. Which you may. But the NT took off the runway, "exclusifying" Jesus as the "only way". That in itself is narrow.

Numerous prophecies concerning the coming Messiah (both as God's Suffering Servant and Victorious King are in the NT, which Jesus fulfilled and is fulfilling.

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resourc...-Testament.cfm