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03-07-2017, 08:25 PM
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#271
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Quintessential guru
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Yes...there may indeed be a God...and there may indeed be a "purpose to life". But, can this be considered a "universal truth"...or is it an "objective opinion"?
In post #262, you told me:
"An universal truth is an universal truth. In math, 2+2=4. If you present this truth to me it is truth, and I have to accept it as truth".
Do you suppose that you can make a "universal truth" out of the concept of the Christian God...which would be as easy to acknowledge as your 2+2=4 analogy?
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I really have to leave, so this is my last post tonight. Believing in Jesus is a matter of faith relying on the words (testimony) of the Apostles.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
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03-07-2017, 08:34 PM
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#272
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 18,962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Yeah. And the Prophet Muhammad has eyewitnesses to his ascension to heaven too...
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Do you have support for that claim?
I'm finding sites that say he had no witnesses to any of his journeys.
https://www.isaandislam.com/muhammad...-journeys.html
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03-07-2017, 09:36 PM
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#273
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Have you ever considered LSD? That could really expand your horizons and awareness.
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Have you tried it?
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Sapere aude
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03-08-2017, 01:04 AM
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#274
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Truth is not established by a vote of the majority.
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Oh,my! Post #201. That's going into my boxcar journal. I think it will come in handy some time in the future. Perhaps the next time boxcar points out that Christianity is the most popular religion on the planet. 
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Sapere aude
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03-08-2017, 01:08 AM
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#275
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Peter, James, John and Paul were real people ...
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How do you know that?
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Sapere aude
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03-08-2017, 01:19 AM
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#276
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
The resurrected Christ was seen by four (4) NT writers (not 3 as previously stated). Peter, John and Paul.
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And from these four, only four, you get ...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boxcar
As far as the resurrection, it's the best attested historical fact of antiquity ever recorded!
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And a rather dubious four at that. Four whose very existence is even more questionable than Jesus'.
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Sapere aude
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03-08-2017, 11:07 AM
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#277
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Have you tried it?
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I don't need LSD. I have the living God living within me.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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03-08-2017, 11:09 AM
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#278
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
And from these four, only four, you get ...
And a rather dubious four at that. Four whose very existence is even more questionable than Jesus'.
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Yeah...even the existence of the people who wrote the NT is questionable. In your world, the NT was probably written by illegal space aliens. 
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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03-08-2017, 02:28 PM
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#279
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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William Cooper Video at a Michigan University
Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 03-08-2017 at 02:33 PM.
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03-09-2017, 01:45 AM
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#280
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
You're in denial. First of all I didn't limit the four direct eyewitnesses to just writers of the gospels. I said NT. Paul identifies himself as being the writer of all the epistles he wrote. John identified himself (in his gospel he identifies himself as the "apostle whom Jesus loved) James wrote an epistle and Peter wrote two epistles. All these four were direct eyewitnesses to the risen Christ.
A very careful study of Mark will reveal a very high likelihood that Mark got most of his material from his close friend Peter. (Just as an aside, Mark never talks negatively of Peter in his Gospel!)
Luke traveled with Paul and got to meet all the apostles. After all, Luke accompanied Paul on his Jerusalem trips. And Luke makes it clear in his gospel that he investigated things carefully by talking with eyewitnesses.
Matthew is the only real question mark; but many scholars think Matthew was Levi the Jewish tax collector whom Jesus called unto himself.
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Paul, John, James, Peter, Mark, Luke, Matthew. The supporting cast of the fantasy. None of these can be shown to exist outside the NT. What part of "circular reasoning" do you not understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
When you couple all these facts with how all the NT is in complete harmony with itself, ...
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Except it is not, as has been repeatedly pointed out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
... only a willful rebel could posit that Jesus never existed, or that he never died, or that his miracles never really took place or that He did not rise from his tomb. The historical accuracy of the NT is truly beyond question when examined HONESTLY!
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You need to look up the definition of honesty.
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Sapere aude
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03-09-2017, 09:09 AM
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#281
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Paul, John, James, Peter, Mark, Luke, Matthew. The supporting cast of the fantasy. None of these can be shown to exist outside the NT. What part of "circular reasoning" do you not understand?
Except it is not, as has been repeatedly pointed out.
You need to look up the definition of honesty.
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But WHY do these people have to be shown to exist outside the bible? The various DIFFERENT writers of the books of the bible bear witness to each others' existence! There is no circular reasoning involved! Different writers wrote the books of the bible! What part of this don't you get? How can there be circular reasoning among different writers? 
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Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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03-09-2017, 02:22 PM
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#282
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
How can there be circular reasoning among different writers?
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Allister claims that George murdered his wife. What is his source for this information? Allister says that Benjamin told him. What is Benjamin's source? It's Charles. Charles' source is Duncan. Duncan's source is Edward. So what's Edward's source? Why it's Allister. On the testimony of these five are we to find George guilty of murder.
Source is what it's all about. In Jesus Outside the New Testament apologist Robert E. Van Voorst acknowledges the problem of source. He hems and haws about it but gets nowhere.
Consider Sherlock Holmes. I think we can agree that Mr. Holmes is fictional, the creation of A. Conan Doyle. But enough time has passed for Mr. Holmes to fall into public domain and pastiches by other authors are now common. A thousand years from now are scholars to take this multiple authorship as evidence that Sherlock Holmes was an actual person? By your "different authors" criteria they would conclude exactly that. This would be "circular reasoning among different writers" leading to a conclusion that we both know to be false.
Furthermore, as has been pointed out, the actual authorship of the gospels is unknown. The earliest surviving copies, which date from centuries later, do not credit an author. The earliest copies which do give an author have "the gospel according to such and so" written in the margin. Only later is credit given in the text. This brings the actual authorship into question.
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Sapere aude
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03-09-2017, 02:59 PM
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#283
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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The SOURCE is the sun....the sun has a TRINITY of 3 aspects, or persons...those being his FULL person at noon, his DYING person at twilight, and his RESURRECTION aspect at dawn....The Sun became the chief metaphor for the ETERNAL God...who daily saves us from the darkness and makes life possible....Jesus is a further abstraction away from the SOURCE.....Son = Sun....we worship the Sun (Son) on Sunday....How long will priests rule over your mind with their ancient mythologies...?
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03-09-2017, 03:08 PM
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#284
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Quintessential guru
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Yes...there may indeed be a God...and there may indeed be a "purpose to life". But, can this be considered a "universal truth"...or is it an "objective opinion"?
In post #262, you told me:
"An universal truth is an universal truth. In math, 2+2=4. If you present this truth to me it is truth, and I have to accept it as truth".
Do you suppose that you can make a "universal truth" out of the concept of the Christian God...which would be as easy to acknowledge as your 2+2=4 analogy?
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Sorry for the interlude, thask. We were having a stimulating discussion, if I may I would like to continue.
Regarding universal truth or objective truth you asked does it apply to the Christian God. Let me give you the starting point for Christian belief.The starting point for the belief of God is in the response of God to Moses' question about who should he say sent him to the Hebrews in captivity. God responded "I Am, Who I Am", He is the eternally existing One.
Christian philosophers looked at this self-declaration and understood the, God of Scripture, is declaring Himself to be the same God that can be reached by natural reason. A conclusion reached through the philosophical arguments of motion or contingency or finality of the natural world around us. Everything has a reason for existence and that reason is not intrinsic to itself. The source from which all things take their intelligibility is what men mean by God. This is the how term God is understood in philosophy and how God Almighty is understood in in traditional Apostolic Christian faith. God is the source of intelligibility of all created things. God is the very act to be. Christian belief is making a claim about the very structure of the universe itself.
The idea or claim that this God revealed himself, in the person, of Jesus is a different argument.
Before we get to the claims about God revealing himself in the person of Jesus, let's return to the idea of objective truth existing based on reasonable beliefs and discuss it.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
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03-09-2017, 03:15 PM
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#285
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Quintessential guru
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
The SOURCE is the sun....the sun has a TRINITY of 3 aspects, or persons...those being his FULL person at noon, his DYING person at twilight, and his RESURRECTION aspect at dawn....The Sun became the chief metaphor for the ETERNAL God...who daily saves us from the darkness and makes life possible....Jesus is a further abstraction away from the SOURCE.....Son = Sun....we worship the Sun (Son) on Sunday....How long will priests rule over your mind with their ancient mythologies...?
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__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
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