Religion II

[hcap]

Esoteric Christianity.

Questions, who is deputy stewed, steward and the master?
.................................................. ....

Eastern teachings contain various allegorical pictures which endeavor to portray the nature of man’s being from this point of view.

“Thus, in one teaching, a man is compared to a house in which there is a multitude of servants but no master and no steward. The servants have all forgotten their duties; no one wants to do hat he ought; everyone tries to be master, if only for a moment; and, in this kind of disorder, the house is threatened with grave danger. The only chance of salvation is for a group of the more sensible servants to meet together and elect a temporary steward, that is, a deputy steward . This deputy steward can then put the other servants in their places, and make each do his own work: the cook in the kitchen, the coachman in the stables, the gardener in the garden, and so on. In this way the ‘house’ can be got ready for the arriva of the real steward who will, in his turn, prepare it for the arrival of the master. “

The comparison of a man to a house awaiting the arrival of the master is frequently met with in Eastern teachings which have preserved traces of ancient knowledge, and, as we know, the subject appears under various forms in many of the parables in the Gospels.

“But even the clearest understanding of his possibilities will not bring man any nearer to their realization. In order to realize these possibilities he must have a very strong desire for liberation and be willing to sacrifice everything, to risk everything, for the sake of this liberation.”
—
G. I.
Gurdjieff, as
quoted by P.D. Ouspensky

In Search Of The Miraculous



ALSO

http://ggurdjieff.com/johnwalz/to-be-2/

In Gurdjieff’s household analogy, the Steward is the chief servant, the one in charge of putting the household in order, readying it for the arrival of the Master. The Steward in the Gurdjieff Work is the product of your work in the School. It is a special part of our being that encompasses the Work ideas of cosmology and psychology. It understands scale and relativity. It can see its lower nature more clearly for what it is. It can call forth the right emotion or attitude or behavior in the moment to be genuinely considerate towards others, beyond one’s imaginary picture of being “a Nice Guy”. It can, sometimes forcefully, command the formerly disordered lower nature so that it does not express negative emotions and bring the right positive emotion instead. It recognizes that what it observes about its lower, conflicting part, is not what “I Am”. It understands that a higher, more unified State of Being exists and it can value and hold an aim for achieving that Higher State.

Through the commands of the Steward doing battle with “the Devil”, flashes of the Higher State of Being begin to appear. In fact, the energy created through this struggle is essential to the process. After its hard fought battle, it is only a deep humility that can ultimately defeat Mr. self-love and Madame Vanity.

Internally, a silent whisper “Be”, a humble request from a faithful servant, who wordlessly surrenders and patiently waits for the Master to appear.

[hcap]

Without conscience we should never be able to work by ourselves without help. …Conscience has been called by Mr Gurdjieff the voice of the Steward. The Steward speaks to us in a quiet voice, which we cannot hear amid the vociferous clamour of the many ‘I’s … [53]

https://gurdjieffbooks.wordpress.com...illpotts-2008/

And here is Nicoll in his Psychological Coomentaries on Steward

https://books.google.com/books?id=6W...teWARD&f=false

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

The fact that you can't follow the blend of the supernatural and the natural (unless of course you are speaking of Genesis which does exactly that) is not a problem any of us can solve. You really can't get off the idea that any science theory of the existence of THIS universe has to be some version of exists and doesn't exist simultaneously. It doesn't.

.

Oh, but it does, Mr. Halv. Atheisitic Naturalism leaves no other option than the universe caused itself. Indulge me, please, in one of my superb analogies.

I invite some fellow-employees over to my house for a spot of afternoon tea and a swim party in my olympic-sized pool, and they marvel at its majestic architecture, the fine woodworking inside, the elegant window coverings, the high vault ceilings, the sweeping spiral stairway, the plush carpeting in some areas and highly polished hardwood floors in others, the finely crafted kitchen cabinetry, etc. They are so impressed they want to know who built the house. The exchange goes along these lines:

Them: This is a magnificent house. Who built this?

Box: Who? No one built this.

Them: After some laughter...no seriously, who built this great place?

Box: I am serious. No one built this. The house created itself.

Them: After looking at me as though I had grown a third eye, they insist on wanting to know, and also want to know why I'm keeping it a secret.

Box: I have told you the truth. This housed caused itself to come into existence. Furthermore, if you guys were more science-literate you would understand that I'm keeping no secret; for scientists have been teaching us for ages that given enough Time and Chance, anything and everything is possible. So, scoff and laugh under your breath all you want but the fact of the matter is: My statement to you is based on rock-solid science. This house caused itself to exist. Besides, how do you think I was able to afford to buy a place a like this? I could never afford to pay the price if I had to actually compensate developers, builders and architects through a high selling price. I just got lucky. I was at the right place at the right time by chance just after this house completed itself. This great house and I are a match made in heaven.

And this is how it is with the house of this world in which we all live -- this house we call the universe. Godless scientists tell us that we do not need to look for causes for existence outside our house, since the cause of all things is the house itself. It's right under the roof -- right under our noses! Since this physical universe is ultimate reality, then this physical universe can be understood and explained entirely by natural, physical laws. There is no design, intentionality, purpose or intelligence behind the universe. It just is. Once upon a time a universe caused itself to come into existence -- no doubt due to the underlying supper power of the Super Twins --the gods of Time and Chance (maybe this is how we eventually got our Batman and Robin or Superman and Supergirl heroes) .

But I understand your argument. Always did. And I'm absolutely sure no one has the power to dissuade you. Ah, to be certain that the observations in the physical world are illusionary. That is a trick very few of us will ever have the magical skills to perform.

No, no one has the power to dissuade me; for God knows how to rescue his people from temptation and to keep them from straying, etc. (2Pet 2:9; Jude 24, etc.)

Enjoy the Preakness today, Mr. Halv.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by boxcar

.

Oh, but it does, Mr. Halv. Atheisitic Naturalism leaves no other option than the universe caused itself. Indulge me, please, in one of my superb analogies.

I invite some fellow-employees over to my house for a spot of afternoon tea and a swim party in my olympic-sized pool, and they marvel at its majestic architecture, the fine woodworking inside, the elegant window coverings, the high vault ceilings, the sweeping spiral stairway, the plush carpeting in some areas and highly polished hardwood floors in others, the finely crafted kitchen cabinetry, etc. They are so impressed they want to know who built the house. The exchange goes along these lines:

Them: This is a magnificent house. Who built this?

Box: Who? No one built this.

Them: After some laughter...no seriously, who built this great place?

Box: I am serious. No one built this. The house created itself.

Them: After looking at me as though I had grown a third eye, they insist on wanting to know, and also want to know why I'm keeping it a secret.

Box: I have told you the truth. This housed caused itself to come into existence. Furthermore, if you guys were more science-literate you would understand that I'm keeping no secret; for scientists have been teaching us for ages that given enough Time and Chance, anything and everything is possible. So, scoff and laugh under your breath all you want but the fact of the matter is: My statement to you is based on rock-solid science. This house caused itself to exist. Besides, how do you think I was able to afford to buy a place a like this? I could never afford to pay the price if I had to actually compensate developers, builders and architects through a high selling price. I just got lucky. I was at the right place at the right time by chance just after this house completed itself. This great house and I are a match made in heaven.

And this is how it is with the house of this world in which we all live -- this house we call the universe. Godless scientists tell us that we do not need to look for causes for existence outside our house, since the cause of all things is the house itself. It's right under the roof -- right under our noses! Since this physical universe is ultimate reality, then this physical universe can be understood and explained entirely by natural, physical laws. There is no design, intentionality, purpose or intelligence behind the universe. It just is. Once upon a time a universe caused itself to come into existence -- no doubt due to the underlying supper power of the Super Twins --the gods of Time and Chance (maybe this is how we eventually got our Batman and Robin or Superman and Supergirl heroes) .



No, no one has the power to dissuade me; for God knows how to rescue his people from temptation and to keep them from straying, etc. (2Pet 2:9; Jude 24, etc.)

Enjoy the Preakness today, Mr. Halv.

In general it is a good policy to not make fun of what you cannot understand. It only makes one look the fool. It is truly the mark of the weak minded to resort to buffoonery to denigrate those who search for the truth of the physical universe, or to miscast what they are saying. Some ignorance is unavoidable, if it is as a result of lack of opportunity or lack of exposure. But purposeful ignorance - I can't imagine there is any supreme being who would find that part of the path to eternity. The saddest thing. You have no ability to conceive of where you miss the point.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

.

Oh, but it does, Mr. Halv. Atheisitic Naturalism leaves no other option than the universe caused itself. Indulge me, please, in one of my superb analogies.

I invite some fellow-employees over to my house for a spot of afternoon tea and a swim party in my olympic-sized pool, and they marvel at its majestic architecture, the fine woodworking inside, the elegant window coverings, the high vault ceilings, the sweeping spiral stairway, the plush carpeting in some areas and highly polished hardwood floors in others, the finely crafted kitchen cabinetry, etc. They are so impressed they want to know who built the house. The exchange goes along these lines:

Them: This is a magnificent house. Who built this?

Box: Who? No one built this.

Them: After some laughter...no seriously, who built this great place?

Box: I am serious. No one built this. The house created itself.

Them: After looking at me as though I had grown a third eye, they insist on wanting to know, and also want to know why I'm keeping it a secret.

Box: I have told you the truth. This housed caused itself to come into existence. Furthermore, if you guys were more science-literate you would understand that I'm keeping no secret; for scientists have been teaching us for ages that given enough Time and Chance, anything and everything is possible. So, scoff and laugh under your breath all you want but the fact of the matter is: My statement to you is based on rock-solid science. This house caused itself to exist. Besides, how do you think I was able to afford to buy a place a like this? I could never afford to pay the price if I had to actually compensate developers, builders and architects through a high selling price. I just got lucky. I was at the right place at the right time by chance just after this house completed itself. This great house and I are a match made in heaven.

And this is how it is with the house of this world in which we all live -- this house we call the universe. Godless scientists tell us that we do not need to look for causes for existence outside our house, since the cause of all things is the house itself. It's right under the roof -- right under our noses! Since this physical universe is ultimate reality, then this physical universe can be understood and explained entirely by natural, physical laws. There is no design, intentionality, purpose or intelligence behind the universe. It just is. Once upon a time a universe caused itself to come into existence -- no doubt due to the underlying supper power of the Super Twins --the gods of Time and Chance (maybe this is how we eventually got our Batman and Robin or Superman and Supergirl heroes) .



No, no one has the power to dissuade me; for God knows how to rescue his people from temptation and to keep them from straying, etc. (2Pet 2:9; Jude 24, etc.)

Enjoy the Preakness today, Mr. Halv.

How about THIS analogy?

The guests are sitting around wondering who built that beautiful house...and they finally decide that, unless the house-builder revealed himself in person, there would be NO WAY for them to know who really built the home.

But then Boxcar storms in wielding a heavy leather-bound book...and he proceeds to tell everyone that some "divine being" sitting in a heaven up in the clouds built the home...and that there is an even MORE luxurious home awaiting them in heaven...if they are deemed "worthy enough". The puzzled guests ask Boxcar for some PROOF to back up this fantastic story...and Boxcar opens up the book that he holds in his hand...and starts reading vague passages from it, which have little to do with the situation at hand.

"Who wrote that book?"...the guests ask in amazement.

And Boxcar replies:

"Well...the book was written anonymously...but it was dictated by the same being who built the home that we are currently sitting in. And don't worry. He'll reveal himself soon...when wars, violence and lawlessness dominate the world."

"But can the book be actually believed?"...one of the guests asks, in total bewilderment.

"Yes"...Boxcar retorts. "The book unequivocally states that its contents are 100% factual".

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

In general it is a good policy to not make fun of what you cannot understand. It only makes one look the fool. It is truly the mark of the weak minded to resort to buffoonery to denigrate those who search for the truth of the physical universe, or to miscast what they are saying. Some ignorance is unavoidable, if it is as a result of lack of opportunity or lack of exposure. But purposeful ignorance - I can't imagine there is any supreme being who would find that part of the path to eternity. The saddest thing. You have no ability to conceive of where you miss the point.

You're absolutely right! I have no ability to see where I have missed point simply because I haven't! My analogy is a bull's eye! What I stated earlier is precisely what the high priests of scientism do with the "house" in which in we all live. In their world there is absolutely no need to go outside the house to find any builder -- to find any cause for its existence. The cause is right under the roof where we all live. The house simply caused itself into existence -- all this per the "strong-minded" and "noble-minded" seekers of the truth for the physical universe. To what should we liken these "noble-minded truth seekers"? Perhaps to cave-dwellers who have never seen the light of day and, therefore, can only devise theories upon theories after endless stumbles in the dark, with each stumble adding another theory to their Towel of Babel in the name of the pursuit of truth? This dark reality is all they know and all they acknowledge, yet...I'm the close-minded one because I know of another reality!? Talk about megabytes of irony!

No entity, no thing, no person can cause its own existence, Mr. Halv. But at the end of the day, after innumerable volumes of science books, reports and journals on atheistic naturalism have been published, this is what the bottom line is: The house in which we all live caused its own existence. If this has the hollow ring of illogicality to your ears, be assured, sir, it's only because it is. The only thing left for you to do is precisely what you have been doing: Deny this is what the bottom line to atheistic naturalism is and accuse me of misstating the thesis and/or conclusion to this utterly absurd world view. But trust me on this: There are some cave-dwelling, doers-of-science who actually understand this pernicious problem that attends to reclusive homebodies, which is why they have concocted different theories in an attempt to try mitigate the absurdity of this kind of naturalism, at the very least. They have come up with the multi-verse theory. And then there are those who even entertained the idea of "venturing outside the house" and looking for causes with one version or another of the panspermia theory, etc.

One must wonder if these highly experienced Stumblers in The Dark will ever exhaust their supply of theories. I'm thinking not, since the more they dig for truth, the deeper the bottomless pit becomes for these poor wretches. They simply have no idea they are digging a deeper hole for themselves with each additional theory.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

"Yes"...Boxcar retorts. "The book unequivocally states that its contents are 100% factual".

Ah yes. The real point. Of what value is a statement that could be applied equally to Dianetics or the Book of Mormon?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How about THIS analogy?

The guests are sitting around wondering who built that beautiful house...and they finally decide that, unless the house-builder revealed himself in person, there would be NO WAY for them to know who really built the home.

But then Boxcar storms in wielding a heavy leather-bound book...and he proceeds to tell everyone that some "divine being" sitting in a heaven up in the clouds built the home...and that there is an even MORE luxurious home awaiting them in heaven...if they are deemed "worthy enough". The puzzled guests ask Boxcar for some PROOF to back up this fantastic story...and Boxcar opens up the book that he holds in his hand...and starts reading vague passages from it, which have little to do with the situation at hand.

"Who wrote that book?"...the guests ask in amazement.

And Boxcar replies:

"Well...the book was written anonymously...but it was dictated by the same being who built the home that we are currently sitting in. And don't worry. He'll reveal himself soon...when wars, violence and lawlessness dominate the world."

"But can the book be actually believed?"...one of the guests asks, in total bewilderment.

"Yes"...Boxcar retorts. "The book unequivocally states that its contents are 100% factual".

Horrible analogy! Why would the guests demand to meet the builder personally? Why not just a name or business card? After all, we do live in the age of the Super Highway of Information, the home of the great internet god Google, among many others. And this means after I introduce everyone to the Jesus of the bible, they will know who is the builder of all things.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No, no one has the power to dissuade me; ...

You could be dissuaded if the right techniques were used. I can think of at least two.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Ah yes. The real point. Of what value is a statement that could be applied equally to Dianetics or the Book of Mormon?

This morning I watched the movie Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief. It's a little disturbing. I have to ask: Is this the way Christianity got started?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Horrible analogy! Why would the guests demand to meet the builder personally? Why not just a name or business card? After all, we do live in the age of the Super Highway of Information, the home of the great internet god Google, among many others. And this means after I introduce everyone to the Jesus of the bible, they will know who is the builder of all things.

The internet is full of "fake news". It has to come from the "horse's mouth".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

(maybe this is how we eventually got our Batman and Robin or Superman and Supergirl heroes) .

Include Samson, Shamgar and Jesus in that list.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You're absolutely right! I have no ability to see where I have missed point simply because I haven't! My analogy is a bull's eye! What I stated earlier is precisely what the high priests of scientism do with the "house" in which in we all live. In their world there is absolutely no need to go outside the house to find any builder -- to find any cause for its existence. The cause is right under the roof where we all live. The house simply caused itself into existence -- all this per the "strong-minded" and "noble-minded" seekers of the truth for the physical universe. To what should we liken these "noble-minded truth seekers"? Perhaps to cave-dwellers who have never seen the light of day and, therefore, can only devise theories upon theories after endless stumbles in the dark, with each stumble adding another theory to their Towel of Babel in the name of the pursuit of truth? This dark reality is all they know and all they acknowledge, yet...I'm the close-minded one because I know of another reality!? Talk about megabytes of irony!

No entity, no thing, no person can cause its own existence, Mr. Halv. But at the end of the day, after innumerable volumes of science books, reports and journals on atheistic naturalism have been published, this is what the bottom line is: The house in which we all live caused its own existence. If this has the hollow ring of illogicality to your ears, be assured, sir, it's only because it is. The only thing left for you to do is precisely what you have been doing: Deny this is what the bottom line to atheistic naturalism is and accuse me of misstating the thesis and/or conclusion to this utterly absurd world view. But trust me on this: There are some cave-dwelling, doers-of-science who actually understand this pernicious problem that attends to reclusive homebodies, which is why they have concocted different theories in an attempt to try mitigate the absurdity of this kind of naturalism, at the very least. They have come up with the multi-verse theory. And then there are those who even entertained the idea of "venturing outside the house" and looking for causes with one version or another of the panspermia theory, etc.

One must wonder if these highly experienced Stumblers in The Dark will ever exhaust their supply of theories. I'm thinking not, since the more they dig for truth, the deeper the bottomless pit becomes for these poor wretches. They simply have no idea they are digging a deeper hole for themselves with each additional theory.

You are closed minded because you cannot conceive of more than one probability. You are closed minded because you refuse to consider any alternative. For example, the collision of two universes, in which one or both of those two universes was brought into existence by your supreme creator, resulting in the creation of THIS universe satisfies your concern about the universe creating itself and violating the law of noncontradiction. What it doesn't do is allow the Genesis story and the whole discussion about death and Jesus' mission, and on that you are also closed minded. On the explanation of all the physical phenomena we can see - plate tectonics, fossils, light from stars that are millions of light years away, an expanding universe - you are closed minded. Science has theories, but should a theory be proven false, and a new theory takes hold, science is pleased. When the search for the truth stops, so does thinking. And to those who chide the thinkers out fear of finding the truth, or because of the closed mindedness that comforts the fearful, well that may be a problem that can never be solved.

Be careful of your examples. The simple minded cave dwellers existed tens of thousands of years before your young earth was brought into existence.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

Did you forget that when Galileo later expressed his views when he published Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, he was accused of attacking Pope Urban VIII, alienating him and the Jesuits. He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", and forced to recant.

Not to mention the Inquisition was on the closed minded side.

And let's not talk about how the Catholics treated the Jews during WW II.

And I have a very good reason for knowing a lot about the Catholics, at least the Catholics of the 60's.


C'mon. I'm sure you're thinking about global climate change. But that's in the vicinity of the bacteria theory of disease for climate scientists. The evidence on one side is overwhelming, while the evidence of the other side is thinner than your average runway model. Many of the great scientific discoveries came as a result of thinking outside the box. Einstein's general theory was heresy in a lot of physics circles until it was repeatedly confirmed. You think that when Pasteur proposed vaccinating people against small pox using live virus everyone just said, great idea? You ever read the story of Alan Touring? The examples are myriad. While it often seems like scientists will glom on to certain theories in all the disciplines, there is still room for the dissenting view. The difference between science and religion is that in science, if you disprove the prevailing theory, you create a paradigm shift and you can become the prevailing view. In religion, you can be labelled a heretic. Of course in religion you can neither prove nor disprove most of the "theories."

Now we are equivocating the term "close minded" to the litmus test of proving something. Great. Based on this equivocation I assert. It is close minded to believe only what can be measured exists.

Additionally, I propose it is also close minded to believe the scientific method is the sole method, by which man can acquire knowledge. However, that statement is easy to prove as false. The litmus test, evocation of proof, is rendered meaningless.

Remind me why these great discoveries were not accepted as soon as they were proposed. Was it because the people were closed minded in their beliefs based on the consensus of the time? These open minded scientists held, unproven theories as truth in their minds.

By definition these commonly held accepted truths, prior to every great discovery, by the scientific community were not factual truths, otherwise Einstein, etc could never be correct.

I stand by my statement that science encourages being close minded. Especially, in the idea science is the only method, by which man can acquire knowledge. As proof, supporting my statement, I will offer Hawking's proclamation about philosophy being dead due to science.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

This morning I watched the movie Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief. It's a little disturbing. I have to ask: Is this the way Christianity got started?

You did? Did you watch it on t.v., on cable, satellite, etc?