Religion II

[boxcar]

As I was having dinner tonight, the Lord brought these passages to mind, Mr. Light. Tell me if you think the Jesus whom you have made into your image was loving when he spoke these words:

Matt 5:21-26
21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 "If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, in order that your opponent may not deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 "Truly I say to you, you shall not come out of there, until you have paid up the last cent.
NASB

And The Lord continued...

Matt 5:27-30

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.
NASB

Imagine, your "best friend" threatening and warning people about being bodily thrown into hell for their sins. Very loving of Him, wasn't it?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You don't answer a question with a question.

Have you heard of the Socratic Method?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Just like you're not sure where the Present is either relative to the Past and Future in your inane arrow of time theory.

You and Actor are two peas in a pod; for neither one of you are able to give a straight answer to a straigthforward question. The two big science brains in this thread...

No, I am certain before is before after, and after is after before. You look at yourself as somehow outside the dimension of time, appearing to be separate from cause and effect.

Cause(s) are always-ON THE HUMAN SCALE OF EVENTS-before the effect(s) then generated. On the quantum scale there may be uncertainty of causes and effects.

Do cause and effect work differently in the quantum world?

https://insidetheperimeter.ca/cause-...quantum-world/

What we experience as cause and effect in our everyday world may work in a profoundly different way in the subatomic realm of quantum mechanics, according to new work published by researchers at Perimeter Institute and the Institute for Quantum Computing (IQC) at the University of Waterloo.

Uncertainty Principle:
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_ce...res/lec14.html

The macroscopic world is Newtonian and deterministic for local events (note however that even the macroscopic world suffers from chaos). On the other hand, the microscopic quantum world radical indeterminacy limits any certainty surrounding the unfolding of physical events. Many things in the Newtonian world are unpredictable since we can never obtain all the factors effecting a physical system. But, quantum theory is much more unsettling in that events often happen without cause (e.g. radioactive decay).

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Now, God has a brief Word a for you:

Ps 14:1-3
4 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men,
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
NASB

Instead of waxing self-righteous, as the self-appointed spokesman for the human race, you should humble yourself and fall to the ground on your face and thank God and praise Him for his common grace in sparing the human race from total annihilation until now which everyone deserves.

I didn't write the song. But it's kind of a catchy tune, eh.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

No, I am certain before is before after, and after is after before. You look at yourself as somehow outside the dimension of time, appearing to be separate from cause and effect.

Cause(s) are always-ON THE HUMAN SCALE OF EVENTS-before the effect(s) then generated. On the quantum scale there may be uncertainty of causes and effects.

Do cause and effect work differently in the quantum world?

https://insidetheperimeter.ca/cause-...quantum-world/

What we experience as cause and effect in our everyday world may work in a profoundly different way in the subatomic realm of quantum mechanics, according to new work published by researchers at Perimeter Institute and the Institute for Quantum Computing (IQC) at the University of Waterloo.

Uncertainty Principle:
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_ce...res/lec14.html

The macroscopic world is Newtonian and deterministic for local events (note however that even the macroscopic world suffers from chaos). On the other hand, the microscopic quantum world radical indeterminacy limits any certainty surrounding the unfolding of physical events. Many things in the Newtonian world are unpredictable since we can never obtain all the factors effecting a physical system. But, quantum theory is much more unsettling in that events often happen without cause (e.g. radioactive decay).

If you're so dead-certain, why are you keeping the location of the Present in your "arrow of time" relative to the Past and Future such a big secret? Spit it out. Where is the Present in your "arrow of time" scheme relative to the Past and Future?

And I have a clue for you, Mr. Scientism: Causes on the human scale of events DO NOT always precede effects.

And I'll lay you money on that because I can prove it. Any amount you're willing to lose. I'll be happy to relieve you of some green if it's burning a hole in your pockets.

Also, I'm still waiting on answer to my question yesterday about the Uncertainty Principle. Is this principle absolutely true: Yes or no?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If you're so dead-certain, why are you keeping the location of the Present in your "arrow of time" relative to the Past and Future such a big secret? Spit it out. Where is the Present in your "arrow of time" scheme relative to the Past and Future?

And I have a clue for you, Mr. Scientism: Causes on the human scale of events DO NOT always precede effects.

And I'll lay you money on that because I can prove it. Any amount you're willing to lose. I'll be happy to relieve you of some green if it's burning a hole in your pockets.

Also, I'm still waiting on answer to my question yesterday about the Uncertainty Principle. Is this principle absolutely true: Yes or no?

You play word games. You deny cause and effect and the established order of eaech on the scale of human events.

And I have a clue for you, Mr. Scientism: Causes on the human scale of events DO NOT always precede effects.

And I'll lay you money on that because I can prove it. Any amount you're willing to lose. I'll be happy to relieve you of some green if it's burning a hole in your pockets

Bye all means bunky. Prove away.
Who will hold the bets? Eh, won any races with the outcome known before it was run?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You play word games. You deny cause and effect and the established order of eaech on the scale of human events.

The only thing around here that is being denied us is your placement of the Present relative to the Past and Future in your "arrow of time" scheme. For some odd reason, you're keeping that a secret from us.

Bye all means bunky. Prove away.
Who will hold the bets? Eh, won any races with the outcome known before it was run?[/QUOTE]

Maybe Mr. Fair and Impartial himself would oblige. PA, would you officially "hold" or witness this little wager?

So, how much are you willing to lose, Mr. 'cap? Remember: The bet is that cause doesn't always precede an effect on the scale of human activity.

And what about the Uncertainty Principle: Is this principle absolutely true?

C'mon, 'cap, be a sport. I'm giving you three swings here. You could be the hero of this forum if you could connect on just one and hit it out of the park.

[hcap]

So box, propose the specific terms of your bet.
If I agree it is verifiable and reasonable, you have a bet.
We can agree on terms and a selection of a judge or judges to determine if you have indeed proved your claim that effect sometime comes before cause.



Actually, why not open up your proposition to others who might want to also make an easy tidy sum? Or, of course YOU COULD REALLY make out LIKE A BANDIT, if you can prove your case.

Be back later to consider your bet.

BTW, I will not hold it against you if you decide to chicken out.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

So box, propose the specific terms of your bet.
If I agree it is verifiable and reasonable, you have a bet.
We can agree on terms and a selection of a judge or judges to determine if you have indeed proved your claim that effect sometime comes before cause.



Actually, why not open up your proposition to others who might want to also make an easy tidy sum? Or, of course YOU COULD REALLY make out LIKE A BANDIT, if you can prove your case.

Be back later to consider your bet.

BTW, I will not hold it against you if you decide to chicken out.

If I chicken out?

My proposition is very simple. It is this: Causes in the world of human events or activities do not always precede effects.

If you disagree with this and think causes always do precede effects, just put up the amount you can afford to lose -- because you will lose it.

And don't worry about others. If you think you have a sure bet, let it ride, baby.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

As I was having dinner tonight, the Lord brought these passages to mind, Mr. Light. Tell me if you think the Jesus whom you have made into your image was loving when he spoke these words:

Matt 5:21-26
21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 "If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, in order that your opponent may not deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 "Truly I say to you, you shall not come out of there, until you have paid up the last cent.
NASB

And The Lord continued...

Matt 5:27-30

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.
NASB

Imagine, your "best friend" threatening and warning people about being bodily thrown into hell for their sins. Very loving of Him, wasn't it?

Hell 101

In the OT,the word Hell, is a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol which means The place or state of the dead, not torment after death as in Psalm 139.8 proves “If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in Hell, you are there.”(NKJV)

In the New Testament, 3 words are translated as Hell. Hades and Tartarus, which are Greek, and Gehenna, which is the Greek form of the Hebrew words Gee and Hinnom, meaning "the valley of Hinnom

HADES is put for the grave, or the state of the dead. After his death, was the soul of Christ ever in hell, in the orthodox sense of the word, as a place of endless torment? No. He was in Hades.

TARTARUS. This word occurs only once. in 2 Peter ii 4. "If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, & Tartarosas. Tartarus here is derived from the Jewish mythology. The word "Hell" here furnishes no proof of their endless punishment

GEHENNA. This word occurs twelve times in the New Testament, and is always translated "Hell”. The Lord says to the prophet, "Go forth into the valley of the Son of Hinnom (Gehenna, hell); and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee...I will even make this city as Tophet (or Gehenna); and the houses of Jerusalem and the kings of Judah shall be defiled as the place of Tophet”.

These and other passages show that Gehenna was a well-known valley near Jerusalem in which the Jews in their idolatrous days had sacrificed their children to the idol Moloch in consequence of which it was condemned to receive the refuse and sewage of the city and into which the bodies of criminals were cast. Gehenna, was "a word in common use to describe any severe punishment, especially an infamous kind of death.

In your example above when Christ said: whosoever shall say, "Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell-fire," or of a punishment equal in severity to the fire of Gehenna, he used the term as the Jews were familiar with it, and used it constantly to symbolize any great punishment or judgment coming on the Earth. Jesus did not give it a signification of endless punishment after death.

Jesus and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men, did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles, and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance.

Now if Gehenna or hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning, and believed it a part of Christ's teaching, that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved?

The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the Church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment, and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world?

All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or His disciples in the sense of future endless punishment.
But in process of time Gehenna came to be an emblem of the consequences of sin and to be employed figuratively by the Jews to denote those consequences. But always in this world. The Jews never used it to mean torment after death until long after Christ.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Hell 101

In the OT,the word Hell, is a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol which means The place or state of the dead, not torment after death as in Psalm 139.8 proves “If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in Hell, you are there.”(NKJV)

In the New Testament, 3 words are translated as Hell. Hades and Tartarus, which are Greek, and Gehenna, which is the Greek form of the Hebrew words Gee and Hinnom, meaning "the valley of Hinnom

HADES is put for the grave, or the state of the dead. After his death, was the soul of Christ ever in hell, in the orthodox sense of the word, as a place of endless torment? No. He was in Hades.

TARTARUS. This word occurs only once. in 2 Peter ii 4. "If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, & Tartarosas. Tartarus here is derived from the Jewish mythology. The word "Hell" here furnishes no proof of their endless punishment

GEHENNA. This word occurs twelve times in the New Testament, and is always translated "Hell”. The Lord says to the prophet, "Go forth into the valley of the Son of Hinnom (Gehenna, hell); and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee...I will even make this city as Tophet (or Gehenna); and the houses of Jerusalem and the kings of Judah shall be defiled as the place of Tophet”.

These and other passages show that Gehenna was a well-known valley near Jerusalem in which the Jews in their idolatrous days had sacrificed their children to the idol Moloch in consequence of which it was condemned to receive the refuse and sewage of the city and into which the bodies of criminals were cast. Gehenna, was "a word in common use to describe any severe punishment, especially an infamous kind of death.

In your example above when Christ said: whosoever shall say, "Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell-fire," or of a punishment equal in severity to the fire of Gehenna, he used the term as the Jews were familiar with it, and used it constantly to symbolize any great punishment or judgment coming on the Earth. Jesus did not give it a signification of endless punishment after death.

Jesus and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men, did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles, and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance.

Now if Gehenna or hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning, and believed it a part of Christ's teaching, that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved?

The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the Church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment, and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world?

All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or His disciples in the sense of future endless punishment.
But in process of time Gehenna came to be an emblem of the consequences of sin and to be employed figuratively by the Jews to denote those consequences. But always in this world. The Jews never used it to mean torment after death until long after Christ.

"All the facts" indeed! You wouldn't know the truth if it poked its finger in your eye! How incredibly ignorant of God's Word you are! It comes really naturally to you, too, doesn't it?

Not only that but your entire post is a non sequitur for it does not address the issue of Jesus' apparent lack of love (which you accused me of having) for teaching about the coming judgment of all men and eternal condemnation and punishment of all those who refuse to obey the gospel.

Now read and weep, for the truth will be as bitter herbs on your palate and bitter acrid gall in your stomach.

Revelation 14:11
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

Matthew Verse 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Hebrews 6:2
...of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:44-48
[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell

John 5:29
and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Jude 6
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Jude 12, 13
12 These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 66:24
24 "Then they shall go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm shall not die,
And their fire shall not be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind."

Jeremiah 20:11
11 But the Lord is with me like a dread champion;
Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail.
They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed,
With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by hcap

So box, propose the specific terms of your bet.
If I agree it is verifiable and reasonable, you have a bet.

Is what I said. What part of "specific terms of your bet" don't you understand?

Of course I disagree with your statement,

Causes in the world of human events or activities do not always precede effects.

It is up to you to cite an instance or case where an effect normally preceded by a cause or causes which demonstrates either:

a)no cause or causes were needed, or
b)the effect actually preceded it's normal cause

I.E. you swing a hammer at a breakable window and it breaks in the same way a hammer causes it to break before the hammer hits the window, or the window shatters in a "hammer-like way" without anything striking it.

Not "window old age"

Your instance please?
NO BOXCARIAN WORD GAMES ACCEPTED!!!!!!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Is what I said. What part of "specific terms of your bet" don't you understand?

Of course I disagree with your statement, It is up to you to cite an instance or case where an effect normally preceded by a cause or causes which demonstrates either:

a)no cause or causes were needed, or
b)the effect actually preceded it's normal cause

I.E. you swing a hammer at a breakable window and it breaks in the same way a hammer causes it to break before the hammer hits the window, or the window shatters in a "hammer-like way" without anything striking it.

Not "window old age"

Your instance please?
NO BOXCARIAN WORD GAMES ACCEPTED!!!!!!

Fine! You disagree. And I'm ready to prove you wrong. How much do you want to lose?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fine! You disagree. And I'm ready to prove you wrong. How much do you want to lose?

I already said I disagree. But no no pigs in a poke. What are the parameters of the terms your bet?

Or film a window breaking before a hammer striking it. I will accept experimental evidence if it is clearly documented. Once again none of your typical boxcarian word games.

I seem to remember PA won't allow bes of this type so you may have to spring your ridiculous pig in a poke without any monetary returns. So I will bet you can not PROVE your nonsense.

You lose, you never post on any religious ( or religion) thread.
I lose and I will do the same. Besides if you can really prove it, Scientific American and dozens of science journals will fill your pockets.

Or even better open a betting both in VEGAS. Claim to know the outcomes of every race before it is run. Which appears to be the essence of your brag.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fine! You disagree. And I'm ready to prove you wrong. How much do you want to lose?

Define cause as you are using it.