Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Meaning you can't prove it.

Meaning it's [i]biblical truth[i], which is what I said the first time.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Which does not answer the question "What's your point?"

It does answer the question. You just don't like the answer.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

That statement is like saying that sometime in the distant past 1 and 3 came together by sheer accident and created 4. Sorry but that's just plain silly.
No, it is not. I made my case in the simplest terms I could and you still do not understand it.
At this time the correct (and honest) answer is we don't know. The answer is not to be found in scripture.

Au contraire, sir. The answer is found in scripture. What you really meant to say is that you are pleading ignorance because no matter how you answer, it won't deliver you from, yet, another dilemma! You see..if you say, the universe did not have to be the way it is, then this would clearly imply that it is what is by sheer accident, and order is never a result of any accident. On the other hand, if you say that the universe is necessarily what it is, then this implies purpose, design and intentionalty from which order would logically flow.

Let's say someone goes up in a small plane with a 200 lb. sack of sand and flies over an airfield at 5,000 feet, and they cut open the burlap sack that contains that sand to let if flow out of the plane unto the runway below. What are the odds that that sand, when it reached the ground, would fall in the shape of an elaborate sand castle? But let's say that you say that there is still 1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000
that with a little help from the wind currents and if the plane was flying at just the right speed, it could actually happen, would you still believe that the sand castle could materialize below by sheer accident - by grains of sand randomly falling to the ground -- totally unaided by intellect?

And your analogy of 1+3 = 4 is infantile. There are a lot more than 2 constants in the Anthropic Principle.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

"C" is the most likely scenario...as far as I am concerned. I admit that he had me fooled for quite a while...but I finally figured him out.

If Boxcar isn't on Satan's payroll...he SHOULD be. And...he might be due for a hefty bonus, to boot.

Actually...I doubt seriously if you have ever figured out to this day that arguments from silence (of which you are so fond) prove nothing.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The answer is found in scripture.

Scripture proves nothing.

Originally Posted by boxcar

... if you say that the universe is necessarily what it is, then this implies purpose, design and intentionalty from which order would logically flow.

Anthropomorphism! People tend to see things that are not really there. E.g., they look at the front of a car and see a face. The headlights are eyes. The bumper is a mouth. For centuries people believed there was a face on the moon.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Let's say someone goes up in a small plane ...

The blind watchmaker argument. Dawkins wrote an entire book on it. I suggest you read it.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchma...ichard+Dawkins

Originally Posted by boxcar

There are a lot more than 2 constants in the Anthropic Principle.

How many are there? Name them.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Scripture proves nothing.
Anthropomorphism! People tend to see things that are not really there. E.g., they look at the front of a car and see a face. The headlights are eyes. The bumper is a mouth. For centuries people believed there was a face on the moon.
The blind watchmaker argument. Dawkins wrote an entire book on it. I suggest you read it.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchma...ichard+Dawkins
How many are there? Name them.

And I bet you believe that you could drop that 200 lb. sack of sand over an airfield out of a flying airplane and that all those grains of sand would fall precisely into a the shape of sand castle, right?

And since you bring up the subject of "seeing things that aren't there", how is it that you "see" order in this universe when its existence is not a consequence of design, purpose and intentionality that was guided by intellect and, therefore its existence can only be accounted for by pure accident? Now, in the past you have championed the Big Firecracker in the Sky Theory (a/k/a the Big Bang in case you want to feign ignorance of what I speak). You believe that this universe is a result of a really, really, really BIG explosion, right? So...with all the might and force of your godless, worldly, "scientific" wisdom that you can muster and have at your command, could you explain to us how it's possible that an uncontrolled, unguided, design-free, purposeless, intentionality-free explosion could not result in anything but destruction, havoc and utter chaos -- the precise kind of results we empirically observe right here in the real world with any explosion of the nature I just described? In other words, how do YOU SEE "order" out of such an explosion of the nature I just described?. Or could it be that YOU are like the pathetic, helpless deer who gets blinded by the bright headlights of an oncoming car, and in your utter state of the very deep darkness of your confusion only think you "see" order in this universe?

And below is a link that discusses the Anthropic Principle.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And below is a link that discusses the Anthropic Principle.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

You didn't read it did you!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

You didn't read it did you!

You asking me or telling me?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So...with all the might and force of your godless, worldly, "scientific" wisdom that you can muster and have at your command, could you explain to us how it's possible that an uncontrolled, unguided, design-free, purposeless, intentionality-free explosion could not result in anything but destruction, havoc and utter chaos -- the precise kind of results we empirically observe right here in the real world with any explosion of the nature I just described? In other words, how do YOU SEE "order" out of such an explosion of the nature I just described?

Science class is in session.

Let's discuss the general nature of explosions. As a representative example let's consider a nuclear explosion where uranium splits into krypton and barium. It is unlikely that the fission is complete so not all the uranium atoms split into krypton and barium. The fission is nearly instantaneous so we have an initial condition consisting of a very hot gas composed of uranium, krypton and barium atoms under very high pressure in a very small space. The temperature and pressure are constant throughout. But this quickly changes because the gas is not contained and the mixture expands, becomes cooler and the pressure drops. Now we see structure, like an onion where each layer is one atom thick. The outer layers are cooler and under less pressure than the inner layers. There is order.

This same description applies to chemical explosions and to compressed gasses whose containers fail.

Of course we tend to associate explosions, deliverate and accidental, with destruction of things outside the explosion itself. But the big bang is the universe. There is no outside the universe.

Let's consider two examples of order (structure) caused by gravity. First is the fact that stars and planets have spherical shapes. Any large mass of liquid or gas will assume a spherical shape because any other shape requires that part of the liquid be uphill (for lack of a better word) from it's surroundings, and you simply do not have hills in bodies of water. Waves, yes, but not hills. Stars are balls of gas and planets begin as molten liquid.

The other example is the fact that the orbits of planets (and moons and space vehicles) are ellipses with the sun (planet) at one focus of the ellipse. That's one of Kepler's Laws. That's structure. That's order.

For an example of order based on the electric force I give you the periodic table. Arrange all the elements in order of the number of protons in their nuclei and you see characteristics repeat at regular intervals. That's order.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You asking me or telling me?

Asking.

(My high school English teacher said it was acceptable to end a question with a "!" instead of a "?".)

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And I bet you believe that you could drop that 200 lb. sack of sand over an airfield out of a flying airplane and that all those grains of sand would fall precisely into a the shape of sand castle, right?

Wrong!

The experiment you propose is invalid because you have left out one very important element, viz., natural selection. Natural selection involves the elimination of failed attempts over many generations. Your experiment does not do this.

Let's modify your experiment so it includes natural selection. Instead of throwing out a bag of sand let's load the plane with 1000 turkeys, fly them over central park and throw them out. Even though turkeys are birds they can't fly. People actually do this every year, most of the turkeys are killed, and P.E.T.A. is pissed. However, some turkeys do survive, most with serious injuries. Gather up the survivors, breed them, and enter them in the next flight. Repeat, repeat and repeat. How many generations before we get a species of turkey that can fly?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Wrong!

The experiment you propose is invalid because you have left out one very important element, viz., natural selection. Natural selection involves the elimination of failed attempts over many generations. Your experiment does not do this.

Let's modify your experiment so it includes natural selection. Instead of throwing out a bag of sand let's load the plane with 1000 turkeys, fly them over central park and throw them out. Even though turkeys are birds they can't fly. People actually do this every year, most of the turkeys are killed, and P.E.T.A. is pissed. However, some turkeys do survive, most with serious injuries. Gather up the survivors, breed them, and enter them in the next flight. Repeat, repeat and repeat. How many generations before we get a species of turkey that can fly?

Neither was natural selection around at the alleged Big Explosion.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Asking.

(My high school English teacher said it was acceptable to end a question with a "!" instead of a "?".)

If you had many teachers like him, that goes a long way in explaining many things about you.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Neither was natural selection around at the alleged Big Explosion.

Natural selection is not necessary until life appears on the scene. Before that there were no sand castles.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If you had many teachers like her, ...

FTFY!

Originally Posted by boxcar

... that goes a long way in explaining many things about you.

Like what?