Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You went on and on about something versus nothing and then claimed my Jewish forefathers were wiser than me since I spoke of nothing claiming they never did. I pointed you to Jewish Kabbalah sages who disproved your incorrect ass-umption

Ahh...Jewish Kabbalah. What does Jewish Kabbalah have to do with Jewish Judaism? Or better yet...what does Jewish Kabbalah have to do with the Jewish writers of scripture? And it was really these ancient Jewish writers that I praised. (Will you ever learn to read!?)

Then you believe all the horror stories I listed. And there are many more.
Believing this stuff literally is the biggest reason people wind up hating religion and becoming atheists and agnostics

And on top of all is what one may miss seeing connections with other teachings and philosophies and religions as long as they do not believe the literal.

Your math and science skills will improve as well maybe weaning you of faith based science.

The "horror stories" are on both sides. And the horror stories confirm what scripture teaches about human nature. The "horror stories" should drive us all to seek God's forgiveness and redemption from our slavery to our sinful nature. They should drive all of us to earnestly seek Christ to free us from our bondage to sin.

"If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." (Jn 8:36)

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

The physicist who made a claim about multi-verses being affirmed once the mass of the Higgs-Boson has been measured.

It's not my claim. It's the claim of physicists at the cutting edge of science, which I am not. And I'm not so sure it's a claim rather than an observation.

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

At the time he made this claim the mass of the Higgs-boson already had been measured for at least two years prior his proclamation and the results did not support his claim.

Nor did it disprove it. The results were inconclusive.

By the way, I do not subscribe to Annals of Physics nor do I try to keep up with the latest developments. It would be expensive and time consuming to do so and no one is paying me to do it. I think that's probably true of most retired scientists.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Good to know you are at least Einstein's equal. Tough luck of the draw, that Einstein was born before you. If you were born first you would have discovered the theories and Einstein would be posting, on the internet, refuting philosophies of Aristotle and Aquinas.

Just to clarify, there are two Theories of Relativity: the Special Theory which Einstein published in 1905, and the General Theory which followed ten years later. When I stated that I could derive Einstein's results the topic under discussion was specifically the Special Theory. Once the textbook or the teacher points out the approach the derivation is rather simple, and I think most student in the class could do it, not just me. That was in 1963. None of us were Einstein's equals.

The General Theory, which was what the 1919 ecliptic observations were about, is much more daunting. There I am definitely not Einstein's equal.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Priceless. You made all these claims and you don't even understand the concept.

Merriam-Webster provides four definitions of the word. They are not all identical. If equivocation is not your intent then you should be willing to state which one you mean or, better yet, provide your own definition.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Ahh...Jewish Kabbalah. What does Jewish Kabbalah have to do with Jewish Judaism? Or better yet...what does Jewish Kabbalah have to do with the Jewish writers of scripture? And it was really these ancient Jewish writers that I praised. (

How can you claim to know Judaism without knowing what Kabbalah is or the mystical tradition it teaches? The mysteries of Judaism, Christianity and all other religions can not be understood by your "flatland" knee jerk one dimensional view.

I feel sorry for you. And your insufferable ego which blocks out anything new and larger than your rather dumb nonsensical house of cards. You represent in biblical terms the Jews that could not recognize the new "wine" Jesus brought, so be careful other literal minded Christians don't accuse you of actually and literally "killing" Christ, and kill you

The "horror stories" are on both sides. And the horror stories confirm what scripture teaches about human nature. The "horror stories" should drive us all to seek God's forgiveness and redemption from our slavery to our sinful nature. They should drive all of us to earnestly seek Christ to free us frocm our bondage to sin. "

So god ACTUALLY ordering the slaughter of innocent children and farm animals makes sense to you?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The Passover Week Festival is a unique holy time. It's stands out from the rest of all the other celebratory, memorial feast days because all the others were instituted in the Law of Moses. But not so with the Passover. It was instituted prior to the giving of the Law while the Jews were still in Egypt. Of course, the Law includes regulations for observance of the Passover ritual but this doesn't change the fact that it was instituted before the giving of the Law on Mt. Sinai. Can you give me the reason for this? Why do you suppose this ritualistic Feast was instituted before and outside the Law of Moses? You think you are knowledgeable about Judaism? Then impress me and answer this question about one of the most significant Jewish festivals in Judaism.

Oy gevalt!

Festivals are used as a memory device because human nature easily forgets the importance of the epic stories those festivals commemorate. Unfortunately you believe the exodus really happened as a historical event.

It did not. You have no notion of what the mystery of exodus is all about. This is why you should be aware of the significance of Kabbalah and the other deeper metaphorical and symbolic tools in all religions including Christianity.

Why go on and on about irrelevant external customs and stuff that is just a distortion of the actual key points of these kinds of tales? That is not what religion is about

Exodus is and always will be a mythic metaphorical tale of the Egypt and Israel within. And the struggle to free oneself from the chief maintainer of our state of sleep, our very own Pharaoh, or ego

Btw, What is the significance of the memory device of eating unleavened bread?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Oy gevalt!

Festivals are used as a memory device because human nature easily forgets the importance of the epic stories those festivals commemorate. Unfortunately you believe the exodus really happened as a historical event.

It did not. You have no notion of what the mystery of exodus is all about. This is why you should be aware of the significance of Kabbalah and the other deeper metaphorical and symbolic tools in all religions including Christianity.

Why go on and on about irrelevant external customs and stuff that is just a distortion of the actual key points of these kinds of tales? That is not what religion is about

Exodus is and always will be a mythic metaphorical tale of the Egypt and Israel within. And the struggle to free oneself from the chief maintainer of our state of sleep, our very own Pharaoh, or ego

Btw, What is the significance of the memory device of eating unleavened bread?

There's nothing important about fairy tales (mysterious epic stories) -- unless you're a little kid, of course. In which case, adults can understand a child's fascination with fictional stories. Have you ever asked yourself, "Self, why have I been reluctant all my life to grow up?"

For your info, Kabbalah has nothing to do with biblical Judaism.

Finally, since you can't tell me why the Passover Feast was instituted in Egypt and prior to the Law of Moses (I supposes the Law is also fiction?), then neither will I tell you the significance of the requirement for eating unleavened bread.

[hcap]

Meaningless particularly when the literal minded presume this prattle to be some sort of revelation. Who cares. The significance of Pesach starts with Exodus

The important stuff you ignore and are proud of your ignorance.

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/exodus...ionship-to-god

The interpretation of the Bible and its stories is a time-honored tradition in Judaism, one that dates back over two millennia. Since the fall of the second temple in 70 C.E., such interpretation has gone by the name of midrash. However, midrash is not simply the act of clarifying difficult Biblical passages or wrestling with abstruse questions that most of us would find utterly irrelevant. (To debate the number of angels crowded atop the head of a pin is not midrash.) Midrash is not purely a scholarly endeavor, because its goal is not scholarship per se. Rather, midrashic interpretation reflects an ongoing attempt to unearth the hidden truth latent in scripture, to peel away the corrosive patina accumulated over many years of reading with eyes clouded by convention, and reveal the pure shining essence of divine wisdom. By applying different glosses, different lenses, to the old, time-worn Bible tales, we can find in them startling new layers of meaning—like placing a dull rock under a black light to reveal luminous veins of color otherwise hidden to the eye.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Meaningless particularly when the literal minded presume this prattle to be some sort of revelation. Who cares. The significance of Pesach starts with Exodus

The important stuff you ignore and are proud of your ignorance.

Too bad that "time-honored tradition" of trying to make sense out of nonsense (fairy tales) doesn't square with how Jesus, the apostles or the prophets interpreted scripture.

[hcap]

Continued

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/exodus...ionship-to-god

I would like to share a new and quite radical midrash regarding the story of Exodus, one that I have found extremely powerful. It broadens our understanding of Judaism by linking it with the mystical quest at the heart of all the worlds’ great religious traditions, both Eastern and Western. It simultaneously deepens our relationship to Judaism by making Exodus personally relevant. As the Passover Haggadah makes abundantly clear, the story of Moses and Pharaoh applies to all of us, now, in the present tense. We’re enjoined to celebrate as if God had led us personally from bondage in Egypt. This is not mere metaphor, nor is it hyperbole. Viewed through the lens of this incisive new midrash, Exodus leaps into blazing color as a model for the spiritual journey itself—a roadmap for our own passage out of bondage and into freedom.

So, what is this midrash? How can we use it to bring forth the true colors of Exodus? We start with the understanding that Exodus is far more than just a simple story about winning freedom. It is an allegorical portrait of the human mind. Its two central characters—Pharaoh and Moses—are not just historical figures, not just characters in a biblical drama. They are archetypes that portray opposing aspects of the human mind in its relationship to Spirit.

Pharaoh represents the part of the mind that sees itself as separate from God and Spirit: the limited ego-mind. Moses represents the part of the mind that is and has always been in full, direct connection with God and Spirit—what I call the Moses-mind. Both are present within us. The plagues brought on by Pharaoh’s stubborn resistance to freeing the Hebrews are our plagues. They afflict us whenever we bow to the Pharaoh-like ego—when we identify with it and accept its goals as our own. Likewise, the miracles performed by Moses are our miracles. They arrive the moment we make the decision, consciously or unconsciously, to be free from ego and follow instead the guidance of Spirit that comes to us through the Moses-mind.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Too bad that "time-honored tradition" of trying to make sense out of nonsense (fairy tales) doesn't square with how Jesus, the apostles or the prophets interpreted scripture.

The metaphorical meaning of Jesus's message is the most important lesson, regardless of your factual historical claims.

Same for Moses, Buddha, and Mohamed

So when you claim Jews killed Christ and excuse the persecution of Jews by Christians you are believing fake news. And missing the point

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Continued

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/exodus...ionship-to-god

I would like to share a new and quite radical midrash regarding the story of Exodus, one that I have found extremely powerful. It broadens our understanding of Judaism by linking it with the mystical quest at the heart of all the worlds’ great religious traditions, both Eastern and Western. It simultaneously deepens our relationship to Judaism by making Exodus personally relevant. As the Passover Haggadah makes abundantly clear, the story of Moses and Pharaoh applies to all of us, now, in the present tense. We’re enjoined to celebrate as if God had led us personally from bondage in Egypt. This is not mere metaphor, nor is it hyperbole. Viewed through the lens of this incisive new midrash, Exodus leaps into blazing color as a model for the spiritual journey itself—a roadmap for our own passage out of bondage and into freedom.

So, what is this midrash? How can we use it to bring forth the true colors of Exodus? We start with the understanding that Exodus is far more than just a simple story about winning freedom. It is an allegorical portrait of the human mind. Its two central characters—Pharaoh and Moses—are not just historical figures, not just characters in a biblical drama. They are archetypes that portray opposing aspects of the human mind in its relationship to Spirit.

Pharaoh represents the part of the mind that sees itself as separate from God and Spirit: the limited ego-mind. Moses represents the part of the mind that is and has always been in full, direct connection with God and Spirit—what I call the Moses-mind. Both are present within us. The plagues brought on by Pharaoh’s stubborn resistance to freeing the Hebrews are our plagues. They afflict us whenever we bow to the Pharaoh-like ego—when we identify with it and accept its goals as our own. Likewise, the miracles performed by Moses are our miracles. They arrive the moment we make the decision, consciously or unconsciously, to be free from ego and follow instead the guidance of Spirit that comes to us through the Moses-mind.

Interpreting the Exodus account in its sensible sense in no way precludes applying the historical account to our own every day lives --but with the huge added advantage that the events are historically true, which makes them even more meaningful and applicable to us. I demonstrated this a few years ago when I did a series of posts dealing with the deeper typological understanding of the account and how that applies to everyone down through the centuries.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Mr Excpert Historian

the events are historically true,

Only in the bible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

The archeological evidence does not support the historical accuracy of the biblical story.[4]The opinion of the overwhelming majority of modern scholars is that this was shaped in the post-Exilic period,[5] but the traditions behind it are older and can be traced in the writings of the 8th century BCE prophets.[6] It is unclear how far beyond that the tradition might stretch, and its substance, accuracy and date are obscured by centuries of transmission.[3]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidenc...arly_consensus

Despite being regarded in Judaism as the primary factual historical narrative of the origin of the religion, culture and ethnicity, Exodus is now accepted by scholars as having been compiled in the 8th–7th centuries BCE from stories dating possibly as far back as the 13th century BCE, with further polishing in the 6th–5th centuries BCE, as a theological and political manifesto to unite the Israelites in the then‐current battle for territory against Egypt.[4]

And how's about Amalek? Did god really smite Amalek, slaughtering all men, woman, infant and suckling babe, ox, sheep, camel and ass.? I mean historically speaking?

And the Egyptian first born male children? Did your god do a whole lot of smiting, historically speaking?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Only in the bible


And how's about Amalek? Did god really smite Amalek, slaughtering all men, woman, infant and suckling babe, ox, sheep, camel and ass.? I mean historically speaking?

And the Egyptian first born male children? Did your god do a whole lot of smiting, historically speaking?

So what, "it's only the bible". Many different biblical writers attest to the historicity of the Exodus events. Take the psalmist who penned Psalm 78. It's a long psalm but worth the read. The psalm would not make any sense if the writer believed the events were merely fictional.

But before quoting the psalm in its entirety, the short answer to the last two questions is "yes" and "yes". There was a whole lot of rebellion against God's will, so God punished a lot of people. After all...the penalty for sin is death.
Now...you CANNOT understand this because of your naturalistic worldview in which you think death existed gazillions of years before humans came onto the scene and is as natural as bears poopin' in the woods. But that is your problem. Now the psalm that recounts Israel's HISTORY up until the time of King David.

Ps 78:1-72
1 Listen, O my people, to my instruction;Incline your ears to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a parable;I will utter dark sayings of old, 3 Which we have heard and known,And our fathers have told us. 4 We will not conceal them from their children,But tell to the generation to come the praises of the Lord,And His strength and His wondrous works that He has done.
5 For He established a testimony in Jacob,And appointed a law in Israel,Which He commanded our fathers,That they should teach them to their children, 6 That the generation to come might know, even the children yet to be born,That they may arise and tell them to their children, 7 That they should put their confidence in God,And not forget the works of God,But keep His commandments, 8 And not be like their fathers,A stubborn and rebellious generation,A generation that did not prepare its heart,And whose spirit was not faithful to God.
9 The sons of Ephraim were archers equipped with bows,Yet they turned back in the day of battle. 10 They did not keep the covenant of God,And refused to walk in His law; 11 And they forgot His deeds,And His miracles that He had shown them. 12 He wrought wonders before their fathers,In the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan. 13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through;And He made the waters stand up like a heap. 14 Then He led them with the cloud by day,And all the night with a light of fire. 15 He split the rocks in the wilderness,And gave them abundant drink like the ocean depths. 16 He brought forth streams also from the rock,And caused waters to run down like rivers.
17 Yet they still continued to sin against Him,To rebel against the Most High in the desert. 18 And in their heart they put God to the testBy asking food according to their desire. 19 Then they spoke against God;They said, "Can God prepare a table in the wilderness? 20 "Behold, He struck the rock, so that waters gushed out,And streams were overflowing;Can He give bread also?Will He provide meat for His people?"
21 Therefore the Lord heard and was full of wrath,And a fire was kindled against Jacob,And anger also mounted against Israel; 22 Because they did not believe in God,And did not trust in His salvation. 23 Yet He commanded the clouds above,And opened the doors of heaven; 24 And He rained down manna upon them to eat,And gave them food from heaven. 25 Man did eat the bread of angels;He sent them food in abundance. 26 He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens;And by His power He directed the south wind. 27 When He rained meat upon them like the dust,Even winged fowl like the sand of the seas, 28 Then He let them fall in the midst of their camp,Round about their dwellings. 29 So they ate and were well filled;And their desire He gave to them. 30 Before they had satisfied their desire,While their food was in their mouths, 31 The anger of God rose against them,And killed some of their stoutest ones,And subdued the choice men of Israel. 32 In spite of all this they still sinned,And did not believe in His wonderful works. 33 So He brought their days to an end in futility,And their years in sudden terror.
34 When He killed them, then they sought Him,And returned and searched diligently for God; 35 And they remembered that God was their rock,And the Most High God their Redeemer. 36 But they deceived Him with their mouth,And lied to Him with their tongue. 37 For their heart was not steadfast toward Him,Nor were they faithful in His covenant. 38 But He, being compassionate, forgave their iniquity, and did not destroy them;And often He restrained His anger,And did not arouse all His wrath. 39 Thus He remembered that they were but flesh,A wind that passes and does not return.
40 How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness,And grieved Him in the desert! 41 And again and again they tempted God,And pained the Holy One of Israel. 42 They did not remember His power,The day when He redeemed them from the adversary, 43 When He performed His signs in Egypt,And His marvels in the field of Zoan, 44 And turned their rivers to blood,And their streams, they could not drink. 45 He sent among them swarms of flies, which devoured them,And frogs which destroyed them. 46 He gave also their crops to the grasshopper,And the product of their labor to the locust. 47 He destroyed their vines with hailstones,And their sycamore trees with frost. 48 He gave over their cattle also to the hailstones,And their herds to bolts of lightning. 49 He sent upon them His burning anger,Fury, and indignation, and trouble,A band of destroying angels. 50 He leveled a path for His anger;He did not spare their soul from death,But gave over their life to the plague, 51 And smote all the first-born in Egypt,The first issue of their virility in the tents of Ham. 52 But He led forth His own people like sheep,And guided them in the wilderness like a flock; 53 And He led them safely, so that they did not fear;But the sea engulfed their enemies.
54 So He brought them to His holy land,To this hill country which His right hand had gained. 55 He also drove out the nations before them,And He apportioned them for an inheritance by measurement,And made the tribes of Israel dwell in their tents. 56 Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High God,And did not keep His testimonies, 57 But turned back and acted treacherously like their fathers;They turned aside like a treacherous bow. 58 For they provoked Him with their high places,And aroused His jealousy with their graven images. 59 When God heard, He was filled with wrath,And greatly abhorred Israel; 60 So that He abandoned the dwelling place at Shiloh,The tent which He had pitched among men, 61 And gave up His strength to captivity,And His glory into the hand of the adversary. 62 He also delivered His people to the sword,And was filled with wrath at His inheritance. 63 Fire devoured His young men;And His virgins had no wedding songs. 64 His priests fell by the sword;And His widows could not weep.
65 Then the Lord awoke as if from sleep,Like a warrior overcome by wine. 66 And He drove His adversaries backward;He put on them an everlasting reproach. 67 He also rejected the tent of Joseph,And did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 But chose the tribe of Judah,Mount Zion which He loved. 69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights,Like the earth which He has founded forever. 70 He also chose David His servant,And took him from the sheepfolds; 71 From the care of the ewes with suckling lambs He brought him,To shepherd Jacob His people,And Israel His inheritance. 72 So he shepherded them according to the integrity of his heart,And guided them with his skillful hands.
A Psalm of Asaph.
NASB

What practical benefit is there to remembering God's power in Egypt (v 42 ff.) when nothing really happened? Why would the psalmist con his readers into remembering something that never took place?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why would the psalmist con his readers into remembering something that never took place?

How would the psalmist know whether it ever took place?

If the psalmist himself had been conned into believing it, then the con who conned him was also conned into believing it, who was conned in turn, all the way back maybe 25,000 years to some story that a cave man made up so he could be the Grand Pooh Bah of the Clan of the Cave Bear.

How is it that you can't grasp this concept?