Who buys The Sheets or Thoro-Graph?

[cj]

My figures are graphed horizontally, just not vertically for time. I use === and --- to indicate different layoffs. I definitely like graphing the numbers, that's why I "borrowed" it from TG. Well, actually from The Sheets, whom TG "borrowed" it from.

[Valuist]

I think there's some pros and cons to both T-Graph and the Sheets.

Cons: I question many of the dirt figures, since they incorporate ground loss and some of the tracks I play often have outside biases. Both products have a built-in bias of overrating closers on the dirt, who are habitually wide.

Pros: I would say the best grass figs around, since they do incorporate ground loss. The layout is definitely a plus. Before we claimed Front Paige Gal we did buy the T-Graph to get a look at the horse's career (and also used CJ's figs) as well as its siblings. The trainer data and sibling info make T-Graph a far better product than The Sheets, IMO. Obviously the full history can be very helpful from a handicapping standpoint.

I don't buy them very often although one of the partners on the recent claim that we made is a staunch T-Graph supporter. But like was said earlier, the steep price means you better be betting and winning big time to support that overhead.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by garyoz

You can visually see the time between races. They also have different type for different categories of races (sprints, routes, etc). The numbers are more nuanced than Beyer's (e.g., a quarter point move forward is very significant within the last 6 weeks) Therefore seeing it graphed makes it easier to see.

The graphed format makes it easier to pick winners--its that simple. You can get a better feel for a horse and the race. You should try it. This is Sheets 101.

The format you describe above is similar to Thoroquick.

I agree that is the best aspect of the sheets is you can see the time between starts and production in an instant. I would love to have a program that took the numbers out of the program that I use and would graph them like that. Its probably not all that horse except for my computer skills.

[so.cal.fan]

I know a woman, who is well known at Del Mar, who was in Las Vegas for the big Handicapping Symposium last year. Jerry Brown (TG) was impressed by her use of the sheets. She was selecting horses he didn't come up with that were winning.
The top agent Ron Anderson (I believe he still has Jerry Bailey?) has used the sheets for years.
So has trainer/attorney Darrell Vienna....in fact, I think Darrell did what CJ did....he developed his own "sheets" borrowing ideas from Jerry Brown, who is a friend of his.
There are absolutely some very smart people (the above examples) who use the sheets very well.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by so.cal.fan

I know a woman, who is well known at Del Mar, who was in Las Vegas for the big Handicapping Symposium last year. Jerry Brown (TG) was impressed by her use of the sheets. She was selecting horses he didn't come up with that were winning.
The top agent Ron Anderson (I believe he still has Jerry Bailey?) has used the sheets for years.
So has trainer/attorney Darrell Vienna....in fact, I think Darrell did what CJ did....he developed his own "sheets" borrowing ideas from Jerry Brown, who is a friend of his.
There are absolutely some very smart people (the above examples) who use the sheets very well.

Del Mar Deb?

[kev]

By the way is there anyone on here that uses the Ragozin sheets, besides me??

[garyoz]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

I agree that is the best aspect of the sheets is you can see the time between starts and production in an instant. I would love to have a program that took the numbers out of the program that I use and would graph them like that. Its probably not all that horse except for my computer skills.

About 4 years ago someone was selling a program that did that for Bris $1 files. They just disappeared overnight. I'll see if I can find their name, or I still might have the program. It had a few bugs. I remember that they were in the Boston area. While I'm not a fan of Bris Speed figs, I always thought that this was a natural product for them to develop- Speed figs on a Sheet type graph.

Has anyone tried the Performance Cycle figures over at Trackmaster? I looked at the samples and I have no clue as to how to use them. I can't imagine anyone buying them. One thing about The Sheets is that they are intuitive.

[GR1@HTR]

Last time I purchased the Sheets (5 years ago), I hit 7 of 9 trifectas at the all mighty Retama Downs....I must admit I was spending way tooo much on my tickets though... inching out a moderate profit...Funny thing is ever since that day I decided that I was going to find a "cheaper" solution to playing the sheets and never purchased another one since....

[kev]

First time I ever got my hands on them was back in 99' and the first race I played I hit a $200 ex. and the very next race hit around $250 ex. I won like 6 out of the first 9 times I got them, I was like how long has this been going on for. Then that same year in the BC I like GOLDEN MISSLE ( off the sheets ) when off at 75-1 and bet him only to win/place and had him in the 2nd spot with all, of course he ran 3rd paying $30.00 to show and the tri was like over $37,000 and I walked away with nothing. Anyone wanting to compare number's or BS about this, I always try to get all the big stakes races every weekend.

[kev]

Someone early said something about the truf figs. Ex. is last sat. MODESTY H. at Arlington Park race 9. IDE BE A LADY looking at her first two races this year, both turf. Beyer gave them a 92 ( which the horse won by 3 3/4 ) and then a 81 ( horse ran 7th 5 1/4L's ) These were both at about distance's 8.5 and 9.0 furlong's at FG. Rag's gave both races a 10+. Anyone else have number's still for these days maybe CJ and see why the big swing?? Alot of the time the Beyers will stay in line, but sometimes they will take a sharp turn somewhere. SHACONAGE beyers were ( from most recent ) 97-96-96-95, Rag's were 3" 5- 7- 7.

[cnollfan]

OT Sheets-wise, but I played Ide Be A Lady in that race. Ran her heart out at 50-1.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by GR1@HTR

Last time I purchased the Sheets (5 years ago), I hit 7 of 9 trifectas at the all mighty Retama Downs....I must admit I was spending way tooo much on my tickets though... inching out a moderate profit...Funny thing is ever since that day I decided that I was going to find a "cheaper" solution to playing the sheets and never purchased another one since....

so....Fig2 was YOUR idea, eh?

[Macdiarmadillo]

Okay, kev, here's another Raggie user that's been lurking on this thread so far.

Never any guarantee that any flavor of sheets is going to give you a life-changing revelation or info that's different from what everyone can see in the DRF. They're pretty useless in most mdn/mcl races. What sheets do for me is speed up the handicapping process, largely by narrowing down the contenders. There are too many other factors that aren't covered by the numbers, particularly pace, that you have to figure.

[AQUEBUCKS]

Agree with Macdiarmida. I've used the sheets for many years, and they give a quick snapshot of the contenders/non-contenders. An average card (9 races) you will find that at least three, sometime four races where the sheets are useless in that there is limited or no data. I also use TMM on occasion and this to me is a more contrarian approach to handicapping vice using the sheets. The sheets sometimes point you to those solid pattern plays with maybe a 5-1 or 6-1 mutuel, but never a monster score like (musique tujours 70-1) as TMM did for me. I wouldn't use them as a stand-alone system, but still believe they are a good tool to use with your handicapping.


Aquebucks

[kev]

That's what I said early in one of these post, there's no need to get a whole card, that's just dumb. I get the DRf and pick out the races that looks to be ones I could play. See i'm the other way around I don't ever take pace into my capping when looking over the sheets, I might see what running style they have, to see if their going to be wide into the first turn. That's not fair of you saying their not going to point you to big prices, i've had some of my biggest scores using sheets, the highest one ever was when I was using TG at MNR park and the horse paid something like $120 and back in 2003 I had Taste of Paradise ( I think that's the wrong spelling ) when he won and paid around what $70 in the San Diego. Horse called Lead Story at CD in Nov. of 2003 ( I think ) won paying like $49 and I had the 2nd place horse picked out ex. coming back over $300 ( reason I bring that one up I posted it on their site TG the day of the race ). The one thing the sheets does for me is they lead me to which horses to throw out.