Wood Memorial and Bluegrass now G2s; PA Derby G1

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Frankly, I don't get why any "prep" for the KY Derby should have the same grade as the big race.

I was just discussing this with someone else.

IMO, there are two types of Grade 1 races.

Some are what I would call regional affairs where most of the best horses in the area face off with perhaps a few shippers here or there. They are very strong, but not all the leading horses in the country will be there and even a few locals may pass.

Then there are a handful of Grade 1s that have established such prestige they are national and sometimes even international in scope instead of mostly regional.

The BC races, the Triple Crown, the Travers, Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup, SA Handicap, Met Mile, JCGC, Whitney etc... are the types of races that often draw the best horses in the country (some of those races have been losing that draw in recent years). Those races tend to be stronger than the typical or average regional Grade 1.

In my thinking they are two different classes of races even though they are all called Grade 1.

You can call them all Grade 1s (including the Wood, SA Derby, Blue Grass etc.. which are regional types) and differentiate as a handicapper from the Derby which is a national Grade 1 or you could drop a whole bunch of the more regional Grade 1s down to Grade 2 status.

Either way, my thinking about them is the same. They are often two different classes of race.

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

..... I think it's inevitable that the SA Derby will have a dry spell eventually too. It has already. .......

The Santa Anita derby had a drought from 1989 (Sunday Silence) to 2012 (I’ll Have Another) . That’s a long time for THE major west coast prep.

[Bigadam119]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I was just discussing this with someone else.

IMO, there are two types of Grade 1 races.

Some are what I would call regional affairs where most of the best horses in the area face off with perhaps a few shippers here or there. They are very strong, but not all the leading horses in the country will be there and even a few locals may pass.

Then there are a handful of Grade 1s that have established such prestige they are national and sometimes even international in scope instead of mostly regional.

The BC races, the Triple Crown, the Travers, Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup, SA Handicap, Met Mile, JCGC, Whitney etc... are the types of races that often draw the best horses in the country (some of those races have been losing that draw in recent years). Those races tend to be stronger than the typical or average regional Grade 1.

In my thinking they are two different classes of races even though they are all called Grade 1.

You can call them all Grade 1s (including the Wood, SA Derby, Blue Grass etc.. which are regional types) and differentiate as a handicapper from the Derby which is a national Grade 1 or you could drop a whole bunch of the more regional Grade 1s down to Grade 2 status.

Either way, my thinking about them is the same. They are often two different classes of race.

The last few years the PA Derby aligns more with the first races you named rather than the latter.

Even this past year stack this years JCGC up against the PA Derby field. The PA Derby field was probably stronger as a restricted race.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Bigadam119

The last few years the PA Derby aligns more with the first races you named rather than the latter.

Even this past year stack this years JCGC up against the PA Derby field. The PA Derby field was probably stronger as a restricted race.

Very few things have fallen farther in American horse racing than the importance of the handicap division stakes in New York.

I still think the Met Mile is a wonderful race, year in and year out, but what used to be the big championship races-- the Suburban, Brooklyn, Woodward, and JCGC are all a far cry from what they once were. Hoppertunity winning the JCGC after being uncompetitive in California was a particular low point.

[cj]

Originally Posted by the little guy

The Dubai World Cup is not graded.

It is listed as a Group 1 last I checked. Am I mistaking your meaning?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by the little guy

The Dubai World Cup is not graded.

Did I say it was? I said it was among the small class of races that were "like" super Grade I's. Notice the word "like", TLG. Do you know what it means?

Do you understand why I was classifying certain races, unofficially, as "super Grade I's"?

As the Nobel Prize winner in Literature once said, "don't criticize what you can't understand".

[aaron]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Very few things have fallen farther in American horse racing than the importance of the handicap division stakes in New York.

I still think the Met Mile is a wonderful race, year in and year out, but what used to be the big championship races-- the Suburban, Brooklyn, Woodward, and JCGC are all a far cry from what they once were. Hoppertunity winning the JCGC after being uncompetitive in California was a particular low point.

As far as I can see there is no handicap division in racing anymore. No body gives weight like Forego used to give in almost every race. Racing now just has their 3yo races and 3 and up, but none are really Handicap Races. When was the last time a horse carried 135 lbs and the 2nd choice carried 120 ?

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by cj

It is listed as a Group 1 last I checked. Am I mistaking your meaning?

It's not graded by the group that grades US races. It's likely self graded.

Did you think of it as a true Grade 1 when it was run on synth?

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Very few things have fallen farther in American horse racing than the importance of the handicap division stakes in New York.

I still think the Met Mile is a wonderful race, year in and year out, but what used to be the big championship races-- the Suburban, Brooklyn, Woodward, and JCGC are all a far cry from what they once were. Hoppertunity winning the JCGC after being uncompetitive in California was a particular low point.

Your west coast bias is so absurd that even you must be embarrassed by some of the crap you post here. Care to list the great handicap performers in CA outside of CA Chrome? How were the "big" races in CA over the last couple of years that he didn't run in? Did you know the horse he was routinely beating this year in CA was drowned in the BC by a horse that lost three prior Stakes in NY?

The entire handicap division has changed over the past couple of decades....NY, CA, and the Midwest. But, to you, it's a NY thing.

[P Matties Jr]

Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour

Who's the last Kentucky Derby winner to win the Penn Derby?

How about Who's the last Wood Memorial winner to win the Penn Derby? That seems to be the question that answers why both should have the same grading.

[P Matties Jr]

Originally Posted by cj

In reality, gradings don't mean diddly poo to bettors. Something to talk about I guess but not much else really.

Agreed. However, the USA has to protect our dirt racing classics. There's too many reasons for these trainers not to run in these races, already.

Also, it seems pretty simple that the four major preps of the Kentucky Derby should all have the same grade. Whatever that grade is up to interpretation, I guess.

[classhandicapper]

For the record, The Dubai World Cup debuted in 1996 as a Listed stakes race. It was given Group 1 status in 1998. I believe whatever organization sets the ratings in Europe does the same thing for the Dubai races. A couple of others have changed over the years.

[cj]

Originally Posted by P Matties Jr

Agreed. However, the USA has to protect our dirt racing classics. There's too many reasons for these trainers not to run in these races, already.

Also, it seems pretty simple that the four major preps of the Kentucky Derby should all have the same grade. Whatever that grade is up to interpretation, I guess.

That is very reasonable.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by SuperPickle

What if I told you 25 years ago the PA Derby would become a Grade One. What if I also told you as a tradeoff they downgraded the Wood and Bluegrass.

You'd have me locked up right?

We've reached Peak Racino.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...-grade-1-2017/

I read the article. What a joke.
So who at Parx is paying off the geniuses at the Grading Committee?
The PA Derby is a so so race with a fat purse that no longer attracts a competitive field. The goal is to get one really good 3 yo to face a bunch of horses that should be pulling wagon loads of apple pies.
Yeah, I run the risk of getting flamed here. I don't care.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by Tom

Who was the last Wood winner to win the Derby?

What difference does that make?