Religion IV

[hcap]

Originally Posted by bopxcar

One more thing: I disagree with your take on the OT. God's love and grace and mercy is seen everywhere in the OT.

Except when god has a literal penchant for murdering the first born and suckling infants.

And wiping out most of his "children" and doing do-overs trying to teach them what their father wants.

I guess if you don't succeed kill, kill, again.
Mysterious ways for sure if you interpret the bible on face value

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Except when god has a literal penchant for murdering the first born and suckling infants.

And wiping out most of his "children" and doing do-overs trying to teach them what their father wants.

I guess if you don't succeed kill, kill, again.
Mysterious ways for sure if you interpret the bible on face value

To those who sit in the valley of death in the pitch black darkness of their souls, they cannot see the OT teaching the utter holiness of God, which stands in sharp contrast to all profane human beings by comparison. Only those who are born again and have been raised from their spiritual tomb can see the kingdom of God, and at least get an inkling of his holiness -- his Otherness.

Ps 103
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul;And all that is within me, bless His holy name. 2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,And forget none of His benefits; 3 Who pardons all your iniquities;Who heals all your diseases; 4 Who redeems your life from the pit;Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion; 5 Who satisfies your years with good things,So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.
6 The Lord performs righteous deeds,And judgments for all who are oppressed. 7 He made known His ways to Moses,His acts to the sons of Israel. 8 The Lord is compassionate and gracious,Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness. 9 He will not always strive with us;Nor will He keep His anger forever. 10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. 11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. 12 As far as the east is from the west,So far has He removed our transgressions from us. 13 Just as a father has compassion on his children,So the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him. 14 For He Himself knows our frame;He is mindful that we are but dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass;As a flower of the field, so he flourishes. 16 When the wind has passed over it, it is no more;And its place acknowledges it no longer. 17 But the lovingkindness of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him,And His righteousness to children's children, 18 To those who keep His covenant,And who remember His precepts to do them.
19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens;And His sovereignty rules over all. 20 Bless the Lord, you His angels,Mighty in strength, who perform His word,Obeying the voice of His word! 21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,You who serve Him, doing His will. 22 Bless the Lord, all you works of His,In all places of His dominion;Bless the Lord, O my soul!
NASB

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

To those who sit in the valley of death in the pitch black darkness of their souls, they cannot see the OT teaching the utter holiness of God, which stands in sharp contrast to all profane human beings by comparison. Only those who are born again and have been raised from their spiritual tomb can see the kingdom of God, and at least get an inkling of his holiness -- his Otherness.

Ps 103
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul;And all that is within me, bless His holy name. 2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,And forget none of His benefits; 3 Who pardons all your iniquities;Who heals all your diseases; 4 Who redeems your life from the pit;Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion; 5 Who satisfies your years with good things,So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.
6 The Lord performs righteous deeds,And judgments for all who are oppressed. 7 He made known His ways to Moses,His acts to the sons of Israel. 8 The Lord is compassionate and gracious,Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness. 9 He will not always strive with us;Nor will He keep His anger forever. 10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins,Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. 11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. 12 As far as the east is from the west,So far has He removed our transgressions from us. 13 Just as a father has compassion on his children,So the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him. 14 For He Himself knows our frame;He is mindful that we are but dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass;As a flower of the field, so he flourishes. 16 When the wind has passed over it, it is no more;And its place acknowledges it no longer. 17 But the lovingkindness of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him,And His righteousness to children's children, 18 To those who keep His covenant,And who remember His precepts to do them.
19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens;And His sovereignty rules over all. 20 Bless the Lord, you His angels,Mighty in strength, who perform His word,Obeying the voice of His word! 21 Bless the Lord, all you His hosts,You who serve Him, doing His will. 22 Bless the Lord, all you works of His,In all places of His dominion;Bless the Lord, O my soul!
NASB

Thanks for reminding me of the religious drivel that I was raised around. I had forgotten the reason why I found it so detestable...but now the memory has come back to me.

[thaskalos]

What would we say today about a "benevolent father", who had great love for his children who "feared him"?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

What would we say today about a "benevolent father", who had great love for his children who "feared him"?

I'd say you should avail yourself to a Hebrew dictionary -- or at least to an interlinear version. Or ift he day ever should arrive that you get to feeling really ambitious, you could avail yourself to multiple translations.

Fear also means revere or even honor. See Strong's 3372 for the Hebrew.

Ps 103:11
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great are His mercy and loving-kindness toward those who reverently and worshipfully fear Him.
AMP

Ps 103:11
11 As high as the sky is above the earth,
so great is his love for those who honor him.
TEV

Then note these passages which sheds much light on what God expects from His children:

1 Sam 2:30
30[i] "Therefore the Lord God of Israel declares, 'I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever'; but now the Lord declares, 'Far be it from Me — for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed.
NASB

And,

Ps 50:15-23
5 And call upon Me in the day of trouble;I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me."

16 But to the wicked God says,"What right have you to tell of My statutes,And to take My covenant in your mouth? 17 "For you hate discipline,And you cast My words behind you. 18 "When you see a thief, you are pleased with him,And you associate with adulterers. 19 "You let your mouth loose in evil,And your tongue frames deceit. 20 "You sit and speak against your brother;You slander your own mother's son. 21 "These things you have done, and I kept silence;You thought that I was just like you;I will reprove you, and state the case in order before your eyes.
22 "Now consider this, you who forget God,Lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. 23 "He who offers a sacrifice of thanksgiving honors Me;And to him who orders his way aright I shall show the salvation of God."
NASB

And,

Isa 29:13
13 Then the Lord said,

"Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
NASB

And,

Ps 119:38
8 Establish Thy word to Thy servant,
As that which produces reverence for Thee.
NASB

And,

Mal 2:5
5 "My covenant with him was one of life and peace, and I gave them to him as an object of reverence; so he revered Me, and stood in awe of My name.
NASB

I have more to say about this, but it must wait until later after I return home.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Exactly! Almost dead ain't dead!

That's why its called a Near death experience. However, most people with NDE's are clinically dead. That means no pulse, no breathing and fixed dilated pupils. You need to qualify to be a NDE candidate.

Furthermore, most NDE's include a decision to either stay on the other side which almost all wanted, or to go back. But in many cases they were forced to come back to this Earth against their decision and some said how angry they were for being forced to come back. In other cases those who came back were told what would happen in their lives as far as family or career etc. Not necessarily cheery news there, such as death, divorce etc. The spirits tell it like it is.

Most people did report an indescribable love from God or a Light that is the main reason they did not want to come back. That is in direct contrast to your "God fearing" mongering. Many were atheists or agnostic as well.

Funny how God did not punish those who did not practice a faith or believe in him, but instead showered them with unconditional love.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I'd say you should avail yourself to a Hebrew dictionary -- or at least to an interlinear version. Or ift he day ever should arrive that you get to feeling really ambitious, you could avail yourself to multiple translations.

Fear also means revere or even honor. See Strong's 3372 for the Hebrew.

Ps 103:11
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great are His mercy and loving-kindness toward those who reverently and worshipfully fear Him.
AMP

Ps 103:11
11 As high as the sky is above the earth,
so great is his love for those who honor him.
TEV

Then note these passages which sheds much light on what God expects from His children:

1 Sam 2:30
30[i] "Therefore the Lord God of Israel declares, 'I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever'; but now the Lord declares, 'Far be it from Me — for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed.
NASB

And,

Ps 50:15-23
5 And call upon Me in the day of trouble;I shall rescue you, and you will honor Me."

16 But to the wicked God says,"What right have you to tell of My statutes,And to take My covenant in your mouth? 17 "For you hate discipline,And you cast My words behind you. 18 "When you see a thief, you are pleased with him,And you associate with adulterers. 19 "You let your mouth loose in evil,And your tongue frames deceit. 20 "You sit and speak against your brother;You slander your own mother's son. 21 "These things you have done, and I kept silence;You thought that I was just like you;I will reprove you, and state the case in order before your eyes.
22 "Now consider this, you who forget God,Lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. 23 "He who offers a sacrifice of thanksgiving honors Me;And to him who orders his way aright I shall show the salvation of God."
NASB

And,

Isa 29:13
13 Then the Lord said,

"Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
NASB

And,

Ps 119:38
8 Establish Thy word to Thy servant,
As that which produces reverence for Thee.
NASB

And,

Mal 2:5
5 "My covenant with him was one of life and peace, and I gave them to him as an object of reverence; so he revered Me, and stood in awe of My name.
NASB

I have more to say about this, but it must wait until later after I return home.

Yes...if I look hard enough, I'm sure that I will find a bible translation or two which equate "love" with 'fear'. But these are just lame attempts to promote some sort of religious agenda...and I have no appetite to play these kinds of silly word games. All rational beings readily acknowledge that "love" and 'fear' are in no-way related; in fact, any presumed 'obedience' which is based on fear may well be regarded as the very ANTITHESIS of what "love" is supposed to be.

I have no problem with those who create a God whom they then place in a position of authority which demands that the populace FEARS him...but I wince when these same people attach adjectives like 'compassionate' and "ever-loving" to this sort of God. These people talk about a "heavenly Father", when all they've created is a "heavenly Tyrant "...and I want nothing to do with such a concept.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

To those who sit in the valley of death in the pitch black darkness of their souls, they cannot see the OT teaching the utter holiness of God, which stands in sharp contrast to all profane human beings by comparison. Only those who are born again and have been raised from their spiritual tomb can see the kingdom of God, and at least get an inkling of his holiness -- his Otherness.

Hurt much creeping out of your "tomb"?

Guess that's why you are always so cranky and mean spirited giving "unbelievers" such wonderful advice

Why do I doubt you know much about the kingdom?

[Tom]

Didn't take too long for this thread to disintegrate into "III."

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...if I look hard enough, I'm sure that I will find a bible translation or two which equate "love" with 'fear'. But these are just lame attempts to promote some sort of religious agenda...and I have no appetite to play these kinds of silly word games. All rational beings readily acknowledge that "love" and 'fear' are in no-way related; in fact, any presumed 'obedience' which is based on fear may well be regarded as the very ANTITHESIS of what "love" is supposed to be.

I have no problem with those who create a God whom they then place in a position of authority which demands that the populace FEARS him...but I wince when these same people attach adjectives like 'compassionate' and "ever-loving" to this sort of God. These people talk about a "heavenly Father", when all they've created is a "heavenly Tyrant "...and I want nothing to do with such a concept.

Your entire post is a straw man. I did not equate love with fear. I said that the Hebrew term has multiple meanings and is used in different ways -- just as numerous words in various languages have multiple meanings.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Hurt much creeping out of your "tomb"?

Guess that's why you are always so cranky and mean spirited giving "unbelievers" such wonderful advice

Why do I doubt you know much about the kingdom?

And I guess your spiritual state of death, as well as Light's, Thask's and others accounts for your dishonesty.

While I am constantly learning about the kingdom of God, I am sure this: Whatever little I know, is infinitely more than you know.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Your entire post is a straw man. I did not equate love with fear. I said that the Hebrew term has multiple meanings and is used in different ways -- just as numerous words in various languages have multiple meanings.

Gee...I thought, with all the time that it took for you to get back here...you'd come up with a more convincing argument. Love is love...and fear is fear, Boxcar...in ANY language. But, that's okay...I'll let you off the hook.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Gee...I thought, with all the time that it took for you to get back here...you'd come up with a more convincing argument. Love is love...and fear is fear, Boxcar...in ANY language. But, that's okay...I'll let you off the hook.

Aww...did you miss me?

The reason I took so long was to give you plenty of time to ty comprehend my post 35. But apparently you became so stuck on stupid you couldn't get past the second paragraph, which read:

Fear also means revere or even honor. See Strong's 3372 for the Hebrew.

Funny, but I don't see the word "love" in that paragraph. Were you hallucinating when you read that?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

That's why its called a Near death experience. However, most people with NDE's are clinically dead. That means no pulse, no breathing and fixed dilated pupils. You need to qualify to be a NDE candidate.

Furthermore, most NDE's include a decision to either stay on the other side which almost all wanted, or to go back. But in many cases they were forced to come back to this Earth against their decision and some said how angry they were for being forced to come back. In other cases those who came back were told what would happen in their lives as far as family or career etc. Not necessarily cheery news there, such as death, divorce etc. The spirits tell it like it is.

Most people did report an indescribable love from God or a Light that is the main reason they did not want to come back. That is in direct contrast to your "God fearing" mongering. Many were atheists or agnostic as well.

Funny how God did not punish those who did not practice a faith or believe in him, but instead showered them with unconditional love.

How could God punish them, since they did not die?

Heb 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
NASB

What part of this text don't you get?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And I guess your spiritual state of death, as well as Light's, Thask's and others accounts for your dishonesty.

While I am constantly learning about the kingdom of God, I am sure this: Whatever little I know, is infinitely more than you know.

Not even the Christians side with you in our religious discussions here...have you realized this? And then you tell us about how "homogeneous" the bible is in its meaning.