Religion III

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

More likely the scientists are suckers! Since a cause can't be detected, scientists cannot assume there isn't one, most especially since on the macro level all changes have causes. Fact!

A good deal of the technology we use is based on the non-macro level
Fact!

Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
Fact!

Nuclear power and weapons
Fact!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

A good deal of the technology we use is based on the non-macro level
Fact!

Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
Fact!

Nuclear power and weapons
Fact!

Fact: All changes in the macro world have causes. I'm quite certain about this in spite of the "uncertainty principle". I'm still waiting for you to provide us with an exception.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And you haven't proved your causeless universe!

And you haven't proved your god caused the universe.

I am telling you you can't. No one can prove it.
Leave it at that, or do you intend to spend another
20 years telling us you have done it?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

And you haven't proved your god caused the universe.

I am telling you you can't. No one can prove it.
Leave it at that, or do you intend to spend another
20 years telling us you have done it?

God causing the universe is the only logically sound postulate -- water and air tight!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God causing the universe is the only logically sound postulate -- water and air tight!

No, it is not. Even if we assume (for the sake of argument only) that Aquinas's chain of causes ends with an uncaused cause it does not follow that said uncaused cause is a deity. It could well be an as yet undiscovered physical process. It could well be the Higgs boson which possesses none of the attributes of a deity, e.g., a desire to be worshipped.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

No, it is not. Even if we assume (for the sake of argument only) that Aquinas's chain of causes ends with an uncaused cause it does not follow that said uncaused cause is a deity. It could well be an as yet undiscovered physical process. It could well be the Higgs boson which possesses none of the attributes of a deity, e.g., a desire to be worshipped.

Yeah, it is. Sorry to deflate your hot air balloon.

Any physical process means it doesn't transcend the universe, but rather is an integral part of it, and right here is where it crashes into the unyielding brick wall of the laws of logic.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

No, it is not. Even if we assume (for the sake of argument only) that Aquinas's chain of causes ends with an uncaused cause it does not follow that said uncaused cause is a deity. It could well be an as yet undiscovered physical process. It could well be the Higgs boson which possesses none of the attributes of a deity, e.g., a desire to be worshipped.

Curious, what caused the Higgs boson?

Turtles all the way down?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down



The saying holds that the world is supported by a chain of increasingly large turtles. Beneath each turtle is yet another: it is "turtles all the way down".

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fact: All changes in the macro world have causes. I'm quite certain about this in spite of the "uncertainty principle". I'm still waiting for you to provide us with an exception.

Still waiting for you to tell me why you discount the sub-atomic as a possible exception to the macro level normally oberved cause and effect. Is the uncertainty principle a mistake? Does it not exist? Practical applications are coming.

Are ALL TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES OF quantum technology which relies on the principles of quantum physics with applications such as quantum computing, quantum sensors, quantum cryptography, quantum simulation, quantum metrology and quantum imaging—based on properties of quantum mechanics, especially quantum entanglement,and quantum superposition all use illusionary? Why are major companies and governmental agencies spending billions to develop them? Are they all mistaken?

[hcap]

Cause and effect you say?

Causality in a quantum world

The clever use of quantum superposition can create situations in which cause-and-effect relationships between events are not well-defined.
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/d...0180328a/full/

A neatly aligned row of dominoes stands before you. Satisfyingly, you gently tap the first tile with your finger to topple it. The domino falls and crashes into its neighbor, which falls in the same way, and creates a ripple effect that continues until all the dominoes have toppled.

Falling dominoes illustrate a deeply rooted concept of science and of everyday life: causation. Event B (the last domino falls) occurs because of event A (the first domino falls). B occurs only if A occurs, and the occurrence of A is independent of that of B.

But that simple causal structure of everyday life can break down in the quantum realm. Recent research reveals that causal relationships can be placed in quantum superposition states in which A influences B and B influences A. In other words, one cannot say if the toppling of the last quantum domino is either the result of the first domino’s fall or its cause. The emerging subject of indefinite causality in a quantum world may provide new insights into the theoretical foundations of quantum physics and general relativity.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Still waiting for you to tell me why you discount the sub-atomic as a possible exception to the macro level normally oberved cause and effect. Is the uncertainty principle a mistake? Does it not exist? Practical applications are coming.

Are ALL TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES OF quantum technology which relies on the principles of quantum physics with applications such as quantum computing, quantum sensors, quantum cryptography, quantum simulation, quantum metrology and quantum imaging—based on properties of quantum mechanics, especially quantum entanglement,and quantum superposition all use illusionary? Why are major companies and governmental agencies spending billions to develop them? Are they all mistaken?

Because nature would be contradicting itself. Nature is in complete harmony with itself. Since all change in the macro world requires a cause, then this must be the case in the world of micros. UNLESS of course...you can provide an exception in the macro world. Without such an exception, though, you might as well tell me to believe in tooth fairies -- that things occur in this universe out of thin air. No cause needed. Just happens. Poof. Just like that. Pure magic.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Because nature would be contradicting itself. Nature is in complete harmony with itself. Since all change in the macro world requires a cause, then this must be the case in the world of micros. UNLESS of course...you can provide an exception in the macro world. Without such an exception, though, you might as well tell me to believe in tooth fairies -- that things occur in this universe out of thin air. No cause needed. Just happens. Poof. Just like that. Pure magic.

Seems to me you do. Lots of convoluted tooth fairies. And you want us to put a dime under our pillows. Your denial of the modern world is pure ignorance.

Question? Why is it possible to build quantum computers applicable on the macro-level using quantum phenomena on the sun-atomic level? Will you at least admit the uncertainty principle works on the sub-atomic level? Hows about accepting the Casimir effect can measure forces on the macro level that occur when particles pop in and out of existence on the quantum level? Causeless?

Exactly what you are asking for.

Casimir effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

One of the first experimental tests was conducted by Marcus Sparnaay at Philips in Eindhoven (Netherlands), in 1958, in a delicate and difficult experiment with parallel plates, obtaining results not in contradiction with the Casimir theory, but with large experimental errors. The Casimir effect was measured more accurately in 1997 by Steve K. Lamoreaux of Los Alamos National Laboratory,[13] and by Umar Mohideen and Anushree Roy of the University of California, Riverside.[32] In practice, rather than using two parallel plates, which would require phenomenally accurate alignment to ensure they were parallel, the experiments use one plate that is flat and another plate that is a part of a sphere with a large radius.

[hcap]

More of exactly what you are asking for.


The Casimir effect: a force from nothing
https://physicsworld.com/a/the-casim...-from-nothing/

The attractive force between two surfaces in a vacuum - first predicted by Hendrik Casimir over 50 years ago - could affect everything from micromachines to unified theories of nature.

What happens if you take two mirrors and arrange them so that they are facing each other in empty space? Your first reaction might be “nothing at all”. In fact, both mirrors are mutually attracted to each other by the simple presence of the vacuum. This startling phenomenon was first predicted in 1948 by the Dutch theoretical physicist Hendrik Casimir while he was working at Philips Research Laboratories in Eindhoven on – of all things – colloidal solutions (see box). The phenomenon is now dubbed the Casimir effect, while the force between the mirrors is known as the Casimir force.

....While the Casimir force is too small to be observed for mirrors that are several metres apart, it can be measured if the mirrors are within microns of each other. For example, two mirrors with an area of 1 cm2 separated by a distance of 1 µm have an attractive Casimir force of about 10-7 N – roughly the weight of a water droplet that is half a millimetre in diameter. Although this force might appear small, at distances below a micrometre the Casimir force becomes the strongest force between two neutral objects. Indeed at separations of 10 nm – about a hundred times the typical size of an atom – the Casimir effect produces the equivalent of 1 atmosphere of pressure.

....Although we do not deal directly with such small distances in our everyday lives, they are important in nanoscale structures and microelectromechanical systems (MEMS). These are “intelligent” micron-sized devices in which mechanical elements and moving parts, such as tiny sensors and actuators, are carved into a silicon substrate. Electronic components are then wired on to the device to process information that it senses or to drive the movement of its mechanical parts. MEMS have many possible applications in science and engineering, and are already used as car air-bag pressure sensors.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Seems to me you do. Lots of convoluted tooth fairies. And you want us to put a dime under our pillows. Your denial of the modern world is pure ignorance.

Question? Why is it possible to build quantum computers applicable on the macro-level using quantum phenomena on the sun-atomic level? Will you at least admit the uncertainty principle works on the sub-atomic level? Hows about accepting the Casimir effect can measure forces on the macro level that occur when particles pop in and out of existence on the quantum level? Causeless?

Exactly what you are asking for.

Casimir effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

One of the first experimental tests was conducted by Marcus Sparnaay at Philips in Eindhoven (Netherlands), in 1958, in a delicate and difficult experiment with parallel plates, obtaining results not in contradiction with the Casimir theory, but with large experimental errors. The Casimir effect was measured more accurately in 1997 by Steve K. Lamoreaux of Los Alamos National Laboratory,[13] and by Umar Mohideen and Anushree Roy of the University of California, Riverside.[32] In practice, rather than using two parallel plates, which would require phenomenally accurate alignment to ensure they were parallel, the experiments use one plate that is flat and another plate that is a part of a sphere with a large radius.

So quantum computers are built? By human intelligence? Or did the quantum computers build themselves?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

More of exactly what you are asking for.


The Casimir effect: a force from nothing
https://physicsworld.com/a/the-casim...-from-nothing/

The attractive force between two surfaces in a vacuum - first predicted by Hendrik Casimir over 50 years ago - could affect everything from micromachines to unified theories of nature.

What happens if you take two mirrors and arrange them so that they are facing each other in empty space? Your first reaction might be “nothing at all”. In fact, both mirrors are mutually attracted to each other by the simple presence of the vacuum. This startling phenomenon was first predicted in 1948 by the Dutch theoretical physicist Hendrik Casimir while he was working at Philips Research Laboratories in Eindhoven on – of all things – colloidal solutions (see box). The phenomenon is now dubbed the Casimir effect, while the force between the mirrors is known as the Casimir force.

....While the Casimir force is too small to be observed for mirrors that are several metres apart, it can be measured if the mirrors are within microns of each other. For example, two mirrors with an area of 1 cm2 separated by a distance of 1 µm have an attractive Casimir force of about 10-7 N – roughly the weight of a water droplet that is half a millimetre in diameter. Although this force might appear small, at distances below a micrometre the Casimir force becomes the strongest force between two neutral objects. Indeed at separations of 10 nm – about a hundred times the typical size of an atom – the Casimir effect produces the equivalent of 1 atmosphere of pressure.

....Although we do not deal directly with such small distances in our everyday lives, they are important in nanoscale structures and microelectromechanical systems (MEMS). These are “intelligent” micron-sized devices in which mechanical elements and moving parts, such as tiny sensors and actuators, are carved into a silicon substrate. Electronic components are then wired on to the device to process information that it senses or to drive the movement of its mechanical parts. MEMS have many possible applications in science and engineering, and are already used as car air-bag pressure sensors.

Was there a point to this post? Other than the one on top of your head, of course?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Was there a point to this post? Other than the one on top of your head, of course?

You asked for a macro world demonstration of a quantum world causeless effect. Remember? And now I provided two articles explaining it and you are now at a loss, resort to your insulting dumb ways.

I have supplied evidence for causeless phenomena, your turn to provide evidence for your deity causing things other than thoughtlessly and frantically, jumping up and down and repeating that you have.