Religion III

[thaskalos]

After the fall of the Roman empire...religion ruled for the next 10 centuries. History has labeled that time-period as the "Dark Ages". And things improved only when religion was relinquished of its ruling power. Those who think that our current age is "amoral" should do some reading up on the atrocities of the Dark Ages. That will give them a new perspective on the evils of "religion".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The definition fits you perfectly. And once again you're guilty of the Fallacy Composition. The actions of some = all are guilty?

Fallacy of special pleading. From the Gospel according to Matthew:

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

"All the people?" Hardly. How many could fit into whatever forum this so-called trial was held? Perhaps about 100. How many Jews were there in the entire world at that time. Perhaps a million. Whatever! However many there were it was certainly only "some" who answered "His blood be on us, and on our children." So don't give me a bunch of shit about the Fallacy of Composition when you use the same fallacy whenever it pleases you.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Fallacy of special pleading. From the Gospel according to Matthew:


"All the people?" Hardly. How many could fit into whatever forum this so-called trial was held? Perhaps about 100. How many Jews were there in the entire world at that time. Perhaps a million. Whatever! However many there were it was certainly only "some" who answered "His blood be on us, and on our children." So don't give me a bunch of shit about the Fallacy of Composition when you use the same fallacy whenever it pleases you.

"All the people" = the Jewish crowd that was present before Pilate's judgment seat! "All" is often used in a limited sense. Here in the context of the passage, it doesn't mean every Jew on the planet.

Matt 27:19-25
19 While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."

20 But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the CROWD to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

21 "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor.

"Barabbas," they answered.

22 "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.

They all answered, "Crucify him!"

23 "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.

But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the CROWD. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

25 All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"
NIV

Therefore, "all the people" = the Jewish crowd present who the chief priests and elders persuaded to have Jesus murdered. Got it now?

And was there a point to your dumb post in the first place?

[Redboard]

The Dark ages started when Rome could no longer afford to pay its soldiers. Now, instead of working for a day’s pay, soldiers worked for the promise of plunder. In the western section of the empire, religion didn’t rule, what ruled were the Goths, Ostrogoths Visigoths, Vandals, Huns, and a few other invading tribes. Trade and travel here were almost impossible. Political units were smaller. It would be a stretch to say “religion ruled ” , IMO. The eastern section of the empire remained pretty-much intact and experienced an economic revival with fewer invasions. Deadly outbreaks of plague were their worst enemy. I guess you could say it was ruled by religion. The rise of Islam stirred the pot and added to the confusion.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

"All the people" = the Jewish crowd that was present before Pilate's judgment seat! "All" is often used in a limited sense. Here in the context of the passage, it doesn't mean every Jew on the planet.

Straw man! Your anti-semitic posts are directed at every Jew on the planet. Most Jews today are not descended from, i.e., not the children of, those who were present. (This for the sake of argument since I do not believe that Jesus ever existed.) Do you practice anti-semitism to insure that you get all descendants of the ones that were present?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Straw man! Your anti-semitic posts are directed at every Jew on the planet. Most Jews today are not descended from, i.e., not the children of, those who were present. (This for the sake of argument since I do not believe that Jesus ever existed.) Do you practice anti-semitism to insure that you get all descendants of the ones that were present?

Learn to read! I didn't pronounce any curse upon the heads of the children of Jews -- the Jews themselves did! They were so eager to be rid of their Messiah, they cared not a whit about any consequences.

P.S. All Jews trace their lineage back to Abraham.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why are you so dishonest!? Why quote just part of the passage and omit important context!?

And the passage has zero to do with original sin. It has to do specifically with the sin of idolatry.

Deut 5:6-10
6[i] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.


Do you know what qualified statements are?

Your interpretation is showing your willingness to accept a murderous god as your god . There is ambiguity in.......

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

It certainly can be understood as god visiting the father's inequity on the children OF THOSE FATHERS, as well as those children who hate god on their own. The next passage clarifies nothing.

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Two entirely different sets of children. One set haws fathers who worship idols. The other does not. Big deal your god is not totally bonkers.

[hcap]

Nor does this clarify anything.....

Exodus 34:7

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Who are "the guilty". Fathers who were the Idolators?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Your interpretation is showing your willingness to accept a murderous god as your god . There is ambiguity in.......

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

It certainly can be understood as god visiting the father's inequity on the children OF THOSE FATHERS, as well as those children who hate god on their own. The next passage clarifies nothing.

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Two entirely different sets of children. One set haws fathers who worship idols. The other does not. Big deal your god is not totally bonkers.

There's no ambiguity. The text is crystal clear. The children of idolatrous fathers who were punished were God-haters in the first place. The statement is clearly qualified, most especially since they are contrasted with the second group who God loves. This narrative is a great example of the doctrine of reprobation that is taught in Rom 1:18ff. It's no accident in this Romans passage that is said of those reprobates that they, too, were idolalters; for they worshiped the creation rather than the Creator!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Learn to read!

Ad hominem!

Originally Posted by boxcar

I didn't pronounce any curse upon the heads of the children of Jews -- the Jews themselves did!

Bulllshit! This is a repackaging of the "God does not send you to hell, you choose to go there."

Expressed as a percentage of the total Jewish population of the world at that time how many were there?

Originally Posted by boxcar

They were so eager to be rid of their Messiah, they cared not a whit about any consequences.

What Messiah? It's not difficult today to locate people who claim to be the Messiah and they are not all locked up in institutions.

Originally Posted by boxcar

P.S. All Jews trace their lineage back to Abraham.

No they do not. The Jewish religion accepts converts as do most religions. Furthermore, Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees with a retinue large enough to challenge the Canaanites. It's unlikely that the entire retinue consisted solely of Abraham's children or even of his relatives. I can go into more detail on that if you wish.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Ad hominem!

Bulllshit! This is a repackaging of the "God does not send you to hell, you choose to go there."

Expressed as a percentage of the total Jewish population of the world at that time how many were there?

What Messiah? It's not difficult today to locate people who claim to be the Messiah and they are not all locked up in institutions.

No they do not. The Jewish religion accepts converts as do most religions. Furthermore, Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees with a retinue large enough to challenge the Canaanites. It's unlikely that the entire retinue consisted solely of Abraham's children or even of his relatives. I can go into more detail on that if you wish.

That doesn't make them ethnically Jewish. In fact, it doesn't make them Jewish at all!

Rom 2:28-29
28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
NIV

IOW, only born again Christians are Jews in the spiritual sense.

And, yes, people choose to not repent and believe the gospel, therefore, there is no one in hell who did not freely choose to remain as separated and estranged from God for all eterinity in the next life, as they chose to be in this one.

Oh...and if you're wondering about the little black pygmy deep in the African bush who never heard the gospel, have no fear. This means that God passed over him/her in terms of grace in the same way he passes over those who hear but don't believe. Both groups will be judged not only on the basis of their lives, but also on the basis of the amount of spiritual knowledge God gave to both groups.

Luke 12:47-48
47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required ; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
NASB

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

That doesn't make them ethnically Jewish. In fact, it doesn't make them Jewish at all!

Rom 2:28-29
28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
NIV

IOW, only born again Christians are Jews in the spiritual sense.

And, yes, people choose to not repent and believe the gospel, therefore, there is no one in hell who did not freely choose to remain as separated and estranged from God for all eterinity in the next life, as they chose to be in this one.

Oh...and if you're wondering about the little black pygmy deep in the African bush who never heard the gospel, have no fear. This means that God passed over him/her in terms of grace in the same way he passes over those who hear but don't believe. Both groups will be judged not only on the basis of their lives, but also on the basis of the amount of spiritual knowledge God gave to both groups.

Luke 12:47-48
47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required ; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
NASB

Scripture proves nothing!

So much for accepting your foolishness "for the sake of argument."

The bottom line is that your devotion to this superstition leads you to believe it is your mission to persecute your fellow human beings. No doubt you approve of the holocaust.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Scripture proves nothing!

So much for accepting your foolishness "for the sake of argument."

The bottom line is that your devotion to this superstition leads you to believe it is your mission to persecute your fellow human beings. No doubt you approve of the holocaust.

Fallacy of Composition. I have not persecuted anyone. Who have I persecuted, you liar? I didn't call any curse down upon the Jews.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fallacy of Composition. I have not persecuted anyone. Who have I persecuted, you liar? I didn't call any curse down upon the Jews.

You use a fictitious account of an event that never happened to excuse your anti-semitism. That serves.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Will you speak out? Or will you be one of those that come?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There's no ambiguity. The text is crystal clear. The children of idolatrous fathers who were punished were God-haters in the first place. The statement is clearly qualified, most especially since they are contrasted with the second group who God loves. This narrative is a great example of the doctrine of reprobation that is taught in Rom 1:18ff. It's no accident in this Romans passage that is said of those reprobates that they, too, were idolalters; for they worshiped the creation rather than the Creator!

You are being ambiguous. No it is not qualified. 10 does not alter 9 in any way. We still have "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children....

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
....................................
this is the qualifier......
"the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"


So the children were punished because their fathers were god haters. God is not saying further generations are god haters and he's gonna punish them because they hate him, but simply because their father's hated him.

Reprobation of the idolator fathers grand-kids.

So the sins are passed down from the fathers for 4 or 5 generations to unborn yet to be god haters?

I was simply telling you that was a bit ambiguous. Giving your version of god a break. But hey, thanks for confirming your Yahweh was as bad a child hating infant killing deity as I suspected.