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12-07-2021, 10:40 AM
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA.
Posts: 7,464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exactatom
The ones that should be forced to tell the truth are the California and Arkansas Racing Commissions. They continuously let BB get away with things. How do these people sleep at night?
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That's true. The CHRB actually in a totally corrupt manner a few times, in regards to Baffert. And I don't know what the Arkansas commission was thinking.
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12-07-2021, 10:42 AM
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA.
Posts: 7,464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff P
One could argue if the CHRB had dealt harshly with Baffert's past sudden horse deaths and not swept Justify's Santa Anita Derby test under the rug:
Racing might find itself in a different place than where it is today.
-jp
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Yes. The CHRB was guilty of complicity, if not outright corruption.
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12-07-2021, 10:46 AM
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA.
Posts: 7,464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theiman
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The 7 horses that died from heart failure in a 16 month period was the tipping point for me. Well, that and the Justify positive that the CHRB hid from the public. The fact that those things happened and Baffert didn't even get a fine showed that California had a huge problem. You can't have dead horses and drug violations and hold no one accountable.
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12-07-2021, 10:59 AM
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
Yes. The CHRB was guilty of complicity, if not outright corruption.
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The CHRB has blood on its hands.
And what they did was literally illegal. We have the Brown Act, which requires that agency decisions be made in public hearings. City councilmen have actually been convicted of crimes under its terms. Every member and advisor of CHRB who attended the private meeting where they decided to change the rule retroactively to allow Baffert's doping of Justify to stand should have bene prosecuted and sent to prison.
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12-07-2021, 11:00 AM
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
I gave NYRA a lot of credit in the other thread on it. You guys have been fighting Baffert in court to try and make a ban stick.
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BTW, the other group that deserves a lot of credit is Churchill. It took an enormous amount of institutional courage to effectively ban Baffert from the Derby while their own racing commission drags its heels.
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12-07-2021, 11:08 AM
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#66
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned that NYRA has been way ahead of the curve on this.
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Good point, they are fighting the good fight. I think making the case got easier yesterday for NYRA.
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12-07-2021, 03:33 PM
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#67
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self medicated
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: toga
Posts: 3,086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
The 7 horses that died from heart failure in a 16 month period was the tipping point for me. Well, that and the Justify positive that the CHRB hid from the public. The fact that those things happened and Baffert didn't even get a fine showed that California had a huge problem. You can't have dead horses and drug violations and hold no one accountable.
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That’s the bottom line right there, I don’t care who it is, where it is or who likes or doesn’t like him. There’s just too much going on with this guy to deny it. But some of Klondike’s always do. Somehow this guy is the “best “ trainer there ever was but all the incidents were “bad fortune”, someone’s else’s fault or a mistake. Yup, and pigs fly. Poor guy, can’t catch a break …….cmon. As long as he trains….. what’s next?
Last edited by burnsy; 12-07-2021 at 03:34 PM.
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12-07-2021, 05:26 PM
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB@BP
This is a racing problem, not only a Baffert problem. But if it makes everyone feel better about the sport we can pretend its a Baffert problem.
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You are right about racing problem. With Baffert being the face of racing, this happening same year as Derby controversity, right after Servis/Navarro fiasco. Not looking good for racing.
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12-07-2021, 06:22 PM
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1,216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
That's true. The CHRB actually in a totally corrupt manner a few times, in regards to Baffert. And I don't know what the Arkansas commission was thinking.
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I'm thinking the Arkansas commission had a concern that questions surrounding the "chain of control" integrity of the test samples would result in a decent probability of causing any strong punishment to not survive a civil court case. We just wound up seeing a "settlement" at the commission level to avoid further court costs on both sides, IMO.
__________________
Tom in NW Arkansas
Past performances are no guarantee of future results. - Why isn't this disclaimer printed in the Daily Racing Form?
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12-07-2021, 06:46 PM
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#70
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarchCapper
I'm thinking the Arkansas commission had a concern that questions surrounding the "chain of control" integrity of the test samples would result in a decent probability of causing any strong punishment to not survive a civil court case. We just wound up seeing a "settlement" at the commission level to avoid further court costs on both sides, IMO.
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1. False positives can happen. But when you have enough violations, they can't all be false positives.
2. The "won't survive a court case" thing is bad reasoning. First of all, horse race commissions win over 90 percent of the time in court. Really. It isn't as though the courts are stocked with people who don't care about horse or bettor welfare and just want to help people who cheat in sports.
Second, the statutes governing horse racing do not require the vast majority of things that trainers' lawyers say they do. Even something as potentially serious as a chain of custody issue, which can certainly derail a criminal case that has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, is not going to be fatal in a horse racing suspension. The trainer has the burden of proof in a court proceeding, and must not only show that the commission was wrong, but was so wrong to "exceed the bounds of reason". So if, despite the chain of custody issue, it's, say 75% likely that the sample came from the horse and the test was accurate, that's enough to get an affirmance.
There is a phenomenon where horse racing commissions, who are often buddy-buddy with the trainers and owners, don't want a big bruising court fight. But when they actually fight in court, they win.
And honestly, their duty to the public is to fight these cases. The goal of a horse racing commission should not be to have a 100% record in court. They are supposed to bring every case where they believe the trainer cheated. If the courts strike them down, they strike them down. But unless the commission actually believed Baffert was completely innocent, he should have been punished and they should have been in court defending the punishment.
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12-07-2021, 07:24 PM
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 5,870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamblin4ever
You are right about racing problem. With Baffert being the face of racing, this happening same year as Derby controversity, right after Servis/Navarro fiasco. Not looking good for racing.
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Its absolutely horrible, cant imagine worse optics than this. Why would anyone want to get involved in this "sport".
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12-07-2021, 07:41 PM
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#72
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 363
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The thing that Baffert has never understood is being the "face of racing" comes with a responsibility. He didn't ask for that responsibility but he has reaped the benefits of being that face of racing. In turn he has the responsibility to play by the rules and not provide content for those trying to end the sport.
Do I think he's cheating? Probably not. Life is Good and Following Sea didn't miss a beat this year moving into another barn. He's getting the best horse flesh every year. I think he exploits an edge if he gets it, but overall.i think the last few years hes been relatively clean.
But he's incredibly careless. After his mishap in the Oaks last year, if he cared he would've made sure he didn't have what happened this year in the Derby. He doesn't care, he thinks he's above the sport.
The optics are poor here, and if I'm wrong I will own it, but horses die of heart attacks. I don't think he did anything nefarious in this instance. But he should be held responsible for embarrassing the sport in consecutive years. What that entails....im not sure. But the ignorance is bliss routine is tired.
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12-07-2021, 08:10 PM
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#73
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,541
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It's too bad we can't get you trolling him personally in some way...that might teach him a lesson.
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12-08-2021, 08:49 AM
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#74
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,606
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Maybe the sport has to do a better job of ending grey area activities.
If a drug is a legal therapeutic and it's found to have some off label benefits or people are training on it and then using the withdrawal guidelines to avoid almost all the positives while still gaining some benefit, that's already a problem.
If there are pain killing procedures that are similar that's a problem.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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12-08-2021, 08:58 AM
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#75
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Just Deplorable
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lebanon, Ohio
Posts: 8,064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
... or people are training on it and then using the withdrawal guidelines to avoid almost all the positives while still gaining some benefit...
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Which trainers are not doing that; and what are their win %'s?
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