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Old 06-18-2018, 03:23 PM   #361
A. Pineda
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I’ve never understood the logic behind this suspicion. How many races do you have to throw to darken the form enough to raise the odds to the point for the one bet at a substantial amount/risk to make up for all the 10% purse bonuses you lost? Or 100% of the purse if you own the horse?

Add to that negative the risk of losing your owner and the horse through losses that should’ve been wins. Or risking the horse through teaching it to lose, and it could go off form or get injured at any time. Or diminishing the animal’s value.

So it doesn’t make sense to me, certainly not in top races, not in MSW and above. Only at the very bottom, and the guys who play at that level supposedly have few dimes to rub together but they’re master-minding a huge bet?
While I agree with much of this, you're over-thinking the requirements of form darkening, which has always existed at the lower levels. It often starts with a legitimate, poor effort, such as a horse being pinched back at the break. Then, the trainer only has to have his charge put in two additional poor efforts, which result in gradual M/L increases. There are many, fairly obvious moves which a rider can make, but this can also be accomplished by running the horse on the wrong surface, at the wrong distance, or at the wrong level.

Horseplayers are very sophisticated these days, and can easily interpret these signs as either form darkening or just trying to find the proper level, surface, or distance for the horse. However, this was my bread and butter for many years.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:30 PM   #362
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The interview:


NYRA Steward: "What happened at the start of the Belmont with Restoring Hope?"

Jockey: "Well, the horse broke a step slow, and I wanted to be sitting just behind Justify. So I hit the go button and, damn, that horse has more go than I thought. By the time I could slow him down, we were a little wide going in to the first turn."

NYRA Steward: "Were you instructed by the trainer to cut off Noble Indy, and keep him away from Justify?"

Jockey: "No."

NYRA Steward: "Were you instructed by the trainer to impede or block other horses to aid Justify in winning the race?"

Jockey: "No."

NYRA Steward: "OK, thanks for your time."

Later...

NYRA Steward: "We fully investigated the happenings in the Belmont Stakes, and found no wrong doing by the jockey or the trainer, the reason behind this ruling is because both the jockey and trainer said so."

The rules are written to have a lot of grey area on purpose, it gives every one involved time to get their story straight.
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:21 PM   #363
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I think the one thing that was SO obvious that everyone agrees, is that Flo hustled his mount up there and then thought “Oh shit!” when it became apparent he was about to take the lead from Justify and get into a dual.

So his immediate reaction was to make sure that didn’t happen, and that was to take the horse wide.

Yes, bad optics, and yes, it was protecting Justify, I just doubt Flo was going along with a master plan of Baffert’s with that move.
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:41 PM   #364
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I think the one thing that was SO obvious that everyone agrees, is that Flo hustled his mount up there and then thought “Oh shit!” when it became apparent he was about to take the lead from Justify and get into a dual.

So his immediate reaction was to make sure that didn’t happen, and that was to take the horse wide.

Yes, bad optics, and yes, it was protecting Justify, I just doubt Flo was going along with a master plan of Baffert’s with that move.
So, with zero instruction from Baffert, Geroux decided he would prefer to end any realistic chance with Restoring Hope (taking him 6,7 wide on the FIRST turn) vs the much more plausible instruction by Baffert which said "if you get to the lead and don't pull him back, you'll be sleeping with the fishes this afternoon"?

Baffert doesn't appear to be some sort of wallflower.
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:52 PM   #365
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What?

You are obviously struggling to comprehend what I wrote in my posts and when shown the error in your thinking, you dismiss it and attack me personally.

No need to reply - you will only change the topic again.

Below is a link for you as well. Good luck with it.

http://www.job-descriptions.org/racetrack-steward.html
Tell you what.
Seeing how YOU are the ultimate authority on all of this, why don't YOU use your multitude of contacts inside the game to go right to the top and get the answers to those questions/rule/suggestion/whatever you call them now?
and get back to us with the answers?
Think of of it as your chance to save the integrity of the game.
Who better than a 25 year veteran?
Get back to us.

Look, someone on the internet disagrees with you.
Get over it.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:04 PM   #366
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I didn't see failed as a horsemen on the Stewards job description.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:04 PM   #367
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So where was Baffert standing while all of this was going on?
The grassy knoll?
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:34 AM   #368
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:32 AM   #369
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When we consider the above...how can we justify wagering even a thin dime in this game? Who is left to instill "integrity" into this game...when this is the prevailing attitude of the "industry"?
If you're making money, that's all the justification you'll ever need to continue on.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:35 AM   #370
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My previous posts came from a fan of the game. These posts will address this issue from a bettor's standpoint.

Rabbit vs. Blocker -- If you are a handicapper and can't conclude the likelihood of one runner going out to keep the pace honest (i.e. Noble Indy) to ensure a fast pace to help another of the same trainer's runners (i.e. Vino Rosso) then you can't handicap and should quit. I don't care what Repole said, you should have known there was a very good chance Noble Indy was going to run with Justify. Nothing at all wrong with this. Again, it is NOT AGAINST THE RULES BOTH SPECIFICALLY AND IN THE SPIRIT OF THE RULES to allow a horse to run fast early, middle and/or late. Nothing wrong with this. You must have seen dozens of sent runners that keep going and win. Well within bounds and not hidden to the betting public.

A blocker, on the other hand, is completely hidden from the public and is, by far, short of performance enhancing drugs, the worst thing to taint the outcome of a race. It should not be allowed and should be dealt with. There is no debate whether Baffert instructed Geroux to do this. No Debate. None. Baffert did it four times that I can recall:

1. 2016 Travers with American Freedom (owner Gary/Mary West) purposely floated out from the 2 post, cascading the entire field together, opened the red sea on the rail which helped Arrogate wire the field. (V Espinoza)

2. 2017 Hollywood Gold Cup with American Freedom (owner Gary/Mary West) came out purposely and again cascaded the field which helped eliminate the main speed, Follow Me Crev, and led to a win by stablemate Cupid. (V Espinoza)

3. 2014 Awesome Again with Sky Kingdom (owner Westrock) which floated Shared Belief out to the parking lot and allowed Fed Biz to roll up the rail. Shared Belief won by a neck over Fed Biz. (V Espinoza)

4. 2018 Belmont with Restoring Hope (owner Gary/Mary West) took out half the field leaving an aqueduct on the inside for Justify. (F Geroux)

Watch the replays of all four, both pan shots and head on, and you see if you can convince yourself that each of these are strictly coincidental and not by design.

Baffert instructed Geroux to break fast and stay wide and keep all the runners to his outside as wide as possible BUT, in doing so, should in no way outrun Justify. So when Geroux did his job, floating others wide, he was going too fast on Restoring Hope and he used ground loss (i.e. 6 wide turn) to slow him up and not challenge Justify. The whole thing is absolute garbage from an absolute garbage human being. Anyone that would destroy the integrity of the sport despite all the sport has done for him is a piece of garbage. I said it before, if someone is willing to blatantly (and frequently) cheat in broad daylight in this fashion, there is absolutely no question they are willing to cheat tenfold in the mask of darkness.
I think you're losing it, quite honestly.

Both those horses (if everything you say is true), were entered in that race SOLELY TO **** UP THE CHANCES OF SOME OTHER HORSE.

PERIOD.

END OF STORY.

You can go on and on with your fantasy about Noble Indy somehow wiring the Belmont, but (like you said in another thread), if you're a handicapper worth two shits, you know that is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN IN ONE MILLION RUNNINGS OF THE RACE.

And horses GO WIDE every SINGLE DAY. Riders also INTENTIONALLY float the competition out if they get a chance. It's called RACE RIDING and it's been a part of the game since forever (just ask Cordero). Jeez.

So stop it, please, with the nonsense and fantasy world scenarios.

Both parties are EQUALLY AT FAULT. To say one was worse than the other is an insult to any semblance of intelligence.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:38 AM   #371
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If you're making money, that's all the justification you'll ever need to continue on.
No, my friend...I prefer to give my business to those who don't insult me. There is more than one way to make money in the gambling arena. Why should I patronize a game whose hosts consider me a "thief"?
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:38 AM   #372
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Baffert which said "if you get to the lead and don't pull him back, you'll be sleeping with the fishes this afternoon"?

Baffert doesn't appear to be some sort of wallflower.
Yeah, you're definitely losing it.

Now Baffert is an assassin.

Hard to blend in when wearing all that blue and the shock of white hair. But whatever.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:43 AM   #373
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No, my friend...I prefer to give my business to those who don't insult me. There is more than one way to make money in the gambling arena. Why should I patronize a game whose hosts consider me a "thief"?
You toss those people aside as the ignorant schmucks they are and continue cashing your tickets.

NOBODY who is winning at this game would or should ever stop. I can't see that happening in a million years. But who knows. Maybe you're the next buddha or socrates or plato (name your enlightened being) who is truly better than us all.

I know I wouldn't stop solely on principle if I were winning.

I guess I have no principle, despite being a "splendid one to behold"
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:02 AM   #374
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You toss those people aside as the ignorant schmucks they are and continue cashing your tickets.

NOBODY who is winning at this game would or should ever stop. I can't see that happening in a million years. But who knows. Maybe you're the next buddha or socrates or plato (name your enlightened being) who is truly better than us all.

I know I wouldn't stop solely on principle if I were winning.

I guess I have no principle, despite being a "splendid one to behold"
I uprooted myself and moved to a place where I have all the gambling opportunities that I want...without having to bear the thought that I am looked upon as a "degenerate loser" by the industry that I've been faithfully supporting for more years than I'd care to admit. No...I'm no Buddha, Socrates or Plato...nor am I a particularly "principled" person. I've just had enough, that's all...and decided to turn my back on the "dying game", in order to pursue the "live ones". The horsemen go where the most money is...and so do I.
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:49 AM   #375
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If NI sprouted WINGS, he would never have beaten Justify.
In reality, without wings, he beat.....NOBODY!
So I guess, NI is better than nothing!

Maybe the owners could name their next horse "Wait for Me" or "Where's the Fire"
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