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Old 09-28-2010, 02:06 PM   #46
kid4rilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Fischer
Agreed
and Education is huge here.
So many players have no idea that different takeouts exist or what the difference is, they have no idea that takeout is even being raised in California, and they've never been sat down for the 2 minutes it takes to run through a demonstration of how takeout affects them.
But that player probably doesn't care because their exposure is so limited that they can't see the pattern. They can still bet $12 trifectas and get back 15 times their money sometimes. ("That should have paid much more").

It's the Bingo crowd. The guy who gets off at 5:00 in the east and can bet Cali, or much smaller pools, or harness. Or play video poker.

And he probably doesn't matter.

Who accounts for the majority of the pools day in and day out is the question.

All you big boys step up and make a stand. I gotta feeling that a few of you big knockers dropping out would have more of an impact than all of the bingo crowd combined.
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Old 09-28-2010, 02:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sericm
Whether you agree with my post or not the bottom line is 95% OF THE BETTORS DON'T CARE AND THE 5% THAT DO CARE DON'T MATTER!
Or is it the 5% that do care are responsible for 95% of the dollars voted?
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Old 09-28-2010, 02:16 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Fischer
Agreed
and Education is huge here.
So many players have no idea that different takeouts exist or what the difference is, they have no idea that takeout is even being raised in California, and they've never been sat down for the 2 minutes it takes to run through a demonstration of how takeout affects them.
Do not expect an OTB,ADW or track personnel to educate a player. It is not in their interests. They want all the action they can handle. You can walk into a track or OTB and 90% of the players would
look at you like you are crazy if you tell them what the take is on EX,TRI AND Supers. In NYCOTB there is an additional take above track take(I think 5 or 6% ) yet when I tell them to get a phone account from OTB which pays "track prices" and call their bets in rather then going to the teller on premises it has no effect. I finally convinced one guy after many years to get a phone account. Reason why?he got sick and could not come in the OTB for awhile.
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:17 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by turfnsport
Then you are missing the entire point, not to mention missing the big picture.
My big picture is the few races on weekends where I think I have a good bet at good odds. Nothing else matters to me.
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:40 PM   #50
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i think some of us internet- savvy players would be surprised that it isn't just the the worst of the OTB, or most degenerate compulsive gambler crowd that it isn't aware of takeout or its effects. I do understand that it is "reckless" to take part in this game without looking up the "rules".
However a moderate portion of the pool monies is probably comprised of guys who know it's somewhere around 20%, who would be concerned if they learned they were getting a worse deal, and who have some self control to comparison shop if they are being abused by certain racetracks business model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kid4rilla
But that player probably doesn't care because their exposure is so limited that they can't see the pattern. They can still bet $12 trifectas and get back 15 times their money sometimes. ("That should have paid much more").

It's the Bingo crowd. The guy who gets off at 5:00 in the east and can bet Cali, or much smaller pools, or harness. Or play video poker.

And he probably doesn't matter.

Who accounts for the majority of the pools day in and day out is the question.

All you big boys step up and make a stand. I gotta feeling that a few of you big knockers dropping out would have more of an impact than all of the bingo crowd combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riskman
Do not expect an OTB,ADW or track personnel to educate a player. It is not in their interests. They want all the action they can handle. You can walk into a track or OTB and 90% of the players would
look at you like you are crazy if you tell them what the take is on EX,TRI AND Supers. In NYCOTB there is an additional take above track take(I think 5 or 6% ) yet when I tell them to get a phone account from OTB which pays "track prices" and call their bets in rather then going to the teller on premises it has no effect. I finally convinced one guy after many years to get a phone account. Reason why?he got sick and could not come in the OTB for awhile.
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:49 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by bigmack
By the way, this whole political angle to the picture is one that is an exercise in futility. This issue is a blip of a blip on the screen of politicians in this state.
BgM,
My reference to to Franklin's quote was an attempt to unify horseplayers, not adrtess politicians who think they have the "devine right" to destroy the "Sport of Kings."

Sure didn't seem to have the desired effect.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:01 PM   #52
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I still kind of like the idea of a Buycott or Procott at a place like Retama with their Pk4. It worked once before for HANA, at the very beginning. It was a key factor early on that gave the group legitimacy as a force to be respected. Maybe we ought to show them again what we can do to move handle.

Hold another procott, then use the attention it gains to announce, "Now that we've shown we can move handle significantly, we'd like to announce we're boycotting CA starting tomorrow."
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:22 PM   #53
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There is that group, but most who go to the OTB are likely to be voting their dollars based on other issues....like post times related to their free time - or the racing/connections that they are more familiar with.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:26 PM   #54
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buycotts/procotts are a hard sell, unless a major track wants to give a good deal or a small track wants to give a tremendous deal
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:29 PM   #55
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DJofSD wrote the following at this URL http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=75099

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The same exacta that would pay $81.40 in New York and $81 in New Jersey will pay just $76.20 in California. That's a big bite to begin with and the type of thing that turns into a huge number over time.
Put this under every bettors nose. After a while it will sink in.

Maybe we can get the attorney generals office to post a warning: betting exotics on CA races after December 25, 2010, is bad for your finacial health.
I suggest handing out flyers across the street from the racetrack for whatever CA meeting is running with those payoffs above in bold typeface.

Last edited by swetyejohn; 09-28-2010 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:43 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Fischer
i think some of us internet- savvy players would be surprised that it isn't just the the worst of the OTB, or most degenerate compulsive gambler crowd that it isn't aware of takeout or its effects. I do understand that it is "reckless" to take part in this game without looking up the "rules".
However a moderate portion of the pool monies is probably comprised of guys who know it's somewhere around 20%, who would be concerned if they learned they were getting a worse deal, and who have some self control to comparison shop if they are being abused by certain racetracks business model.
Most of my wagers are made from home on the internet. The once a week that I visit the local OTB/Pub is basically the only exposure that I have with other players.(except for this forum)
Very rarely do I attend the track anymore. In 2009 went to Mth once ,Saratoga, 3x, Belmont and Aqu once.
The players that I encounter at OTB are not handicappers in any sense of the word. They go in have a few beers and wager exactas, and TRI's for small amounts. It is entertainment and social contact for a few hours. If they win great,-- they buy you a drink --they lose-- tomorrow is another day.Reduced takeout is not an issue for them, although it would keep them in the game longer without knowing it. Just don"t know how much money is wagered on line and what type of players do it by volume. Does anyone have figures for wagers on track off track by internet or phone. For instance if you have a NYRA account is the wager considered on track volume since you have to be a NY resident to have a NYRA account. There must be other states with similar situations.
Any figures out there on who, where and how the wagers are made?
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:54 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
My big picture is the few races on weekends where I think I have a good bet at good odds. Nothing else matters to me.
I agree Tom...but do those few plays have to be on California races? Don't we have enough betting options out there on the weekends?

IMO, there is a bigger issue here than the California takeout hike issue. This industry has always maintained that the horseplayer is either uninformed or uninterested (or both), as to the negative affects of the excessive takeout to his financial wellbeing...and that is a very troubling opinion for a business to have about its customers, especially in today's economic climate. If we don't rise in protest now...who's to say what the takeouts across the land will look like, a few years from now?

As horseplayers, we have been much maligned for too long, and it's about time we proved that we are more than the "addicted idiots" that the industry perceives us to be.

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Old 09-28-2010, 05:14 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
My big picture is the few races on weekends where I think I have a good bet at good odds. Nothing else matters to me.
I agree.

Why is California being singled out? They still have the lowest pre-breakage WPS takeout in the USA. The tri, super, pick 3/4 takeouts will still be lower than a lot of other tracks.

Personally, I've never been a huge fan of Cali racing and prefer eastern tracks. But in the same vein as someone else posted earlier in the thread, it seems more sensible to let the probable payouts determine whether or not to bet.
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:34 PM   #59
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Boycott with a purpose

There has to be a boycott. Players need to commit to this and expect that it will be inconvenient for them (in many cases) to take their game elsewhere but that's the nature of the beast. It has to hurt the owners and tracks financially. And, there has to be a quid pro quo that comes back to the horseplayers in the form of formal recognition and participation in how the industry is run and how much the customers are supposed to pay for the "privilege" of being customers before the boycott ends.

The industry leadership has drawn a line in the sand with their continued offerings of stale bread and higher prices (good stuff, Jeff!). They've made a mockery of the democratic process and thumbed their noses at their benefactors whether they are in the grandstand or behind a computer terminal. I wish I could tell if the recent pronouncements at the September CHRB meeting were a reflection of ignorance or arrogance. Doesn't really matter. They deserve our scorn. Not our support.

For those of you who doubt that HANA isn't big enough or that a boycott won't work, I will remind you that our boycott of Magna in 2004 (along with their inept management) cost them over $100M in handle that year. There were about 700 horseplayers "signed up" for that boycott plus many more who chose not to make their identity public. We need to stand together. This will get results. And once it gains some traction and momentum the boycott participation will do nothing but grow.
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:55 PM   #60
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But why just California? Why not NYRA with its outrageous 25% takeout on many wagers? Why not Monmouth? Woodbine? Or countless others?

Better yet, why not boycott all tracks until they reduce takeout to around the 12% WPS, 15% exotic takeouts (and nickel breakage only) that studies say are optimal? I mean, for the good of the game, right?

As far as taking one's game elsewhere, if somebody's game is win betting, where exactly is he going to take it and not be faced with an even higher takeout? Northlands Park, here we come?
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