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Old 09-05-2010, 12:35 PM   #106
andymays
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Originally Posted by rrbauer
Outstanding article. Required reading for any horseplayer that gives a damn. And, required reading for all horse owners who feel that they are entitled to be supported by the game.
Not all owners and trainers and Racing Executives and Racing Officials think that raising the take is a good idea.

Why alienate them with a long term boycott? Three days during Oak Tree is the way to go. If it's successful it can be done again and again.
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:01 PM   #107
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Not all owners and trainers and Racing Executives and Racing Officials think that raising the take is a good idea.

Why alienate them with a long term boycott? Three days during Oak Tree is the way to go. If it's successful it can be done again and again.
Are you suggesting three consecutive days? I assume they would not be days with BC preps.

Will it be all pools or only specific ones?

How would sufficient support be determined beforehand?
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:57 PM   #108
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Another thing that occurred to me is whether Oak Tree management supports the increase as well as Hollywood Park’s. Oak Tree is known for raising funds for backstretch worker assistance (charities?). We might look kind of callous if we were impact that activity.
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Old 09-06-2010, 07:25 AM   #109
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Are you suggesting three consecutive days? I assume they would not be days with BC preps.

Will it be all pools or only specific ones?

How would sufficient support be determined beforehand?
Three weekdays.

At some point it will have to be on the "good days" if they don't throw us a bone.
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Old 09-06-2010, 07:28 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Indulto
Another thing that occurred to me is whether Oak Tree management supports the increase as well as Hollywood Park’s. Oak Tree is known for raising funds for backstretch worker assistance (charities?). We might look kind of callous if we were impact that activity.
So ripping us off for a good cause is ok?
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:06 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by andymays
Not all owners and trainers and Racing Executives and Racing Officials think that raising the take is a good idea.
You know this because.....? It's a certainty that none of "them" are speaking their minds in public and after the romping win by the takeout bill in the legislature they don't appear to be speaking their minds to the CA legislators either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
Why alienate them with a long term boycott? Three days during Oak Tree is the way to go. If it's successful it can be done again and again.
You beg the question, since "them" is hardly definitive. If you think a 3-day boycott will do the job then go for it. Arrange it. Lead it. Put your money where your mouth is.
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:32 PM   #112
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You know this because.....? It's a certainty that none of "them" are speaking their minds in public and after the romping win by the takeout bill in the legislature they don't appear to be speaking their minds to the CA legislators either.



You beg the question, since "them" is hardly definitive. If you think a 3-day boycott will do the job then go for it. Arrange it. Lead it. Put your money where your mouth is.
Money?

Are you saying you'll donate only if it's long term?

We go through this stuff at the CHRB. All the guys with a lot of money and high social standing want to pull the strings. This is what got us here.

It's about doing the right thing. It's a lot easier for the people that don't normally play California and don't live here to say "let's do this" and "let's do that".

The California Players deserve extra consideration here.

Last edited by andymays; 09-06-2010 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:18 PM   #113
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So ripping us off for a good cause is ok?
If it were OK, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

We need support. Not, just from horseplayers, but from both sides of the track. If, in fact, Oak Tree Board members are on record against the takeout hike AND the Governor has not yet signed the bill THEN it might appear we are pursuing our agenda at the expense of the backstretch worker. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Now I don't know what the position of the OT board members are or when the Governor will sign the bill assuming that is a forgone conclusion. I'm just saying we have to be prepared to deal with all manner of criticism and ploys intended to undermine what we are trying to accomplish.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:17 PM   #114
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maybe as part of the boycott we could all pool our money that we would have played in California, and bet it into any California Pick 6 carryovers that pop up. Then we could still bet our normal handle at SoCal, but most days we'd technically be boycotting.

Kind of a win-win.

/s
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:51 PM   #115
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thoughts...

This thread is like rubber necking while driving past a car accident -- for some reason it is hard not to look.

So as long as I'm looking I may as well share my thoughts.

CA racing powers felt they had to put more money into horseman's pockets in order to keep up the racing population (among other reasons). They figured the easiest way is to tax the horseplayer. And they're right that they will get more money -- in the short term. Racetracks are in crisis and need some serious intervention. Rate hikes are only a short term solution. Increasing business takes hard work and some seriously creative solutions. It's much easier just to take more money from current bettors than it is to come up with innovative ways to find new bettors.

In the short term the horsemen and tracks and maybe even the state of CA will put more money in their pockets. In the longer term there will be less money because horseplayers will wash out quicker. So those marginal players will lose their betting wealth at the expense of horseman et al increasing their wealth.

My second thought is that anyone who is talking about boycotting or is trying to organize a boycott is wasting their time because not enough people are going to boycott. I'd would love it if horseplayers prove me wrong! And I'll be the first to admit I was wrong!!

On the other hand, if people enjoy talking about boycotting here on PA, but are not really serious about it, then it is not a waste of time. It's entertainment.

Try this... go to the racetrack and look around at all the people. Now, try to figure out a strategy to get all those people to NOT bet. The probability of getting enough of them to NOT bet so as to pressure CA tracks to lower takeout is so small as to be zero. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but my money is on an effective boycott by the betting masses never happening.

Third, a boycott probably isn't necessary because so many horseplayers will be washing out due to the takeout increase. They probably won't come back. If you really want a boycott then just be patient. It's slowly happening at this very moment.

Fourth, the one strategy that might work is to get some whales to stop betting. If a whale is presented with a good enough sales pitch they might boycott. It might be a hard sell, but it might depend on the whale. This could go either way.

Fifth, my favorite idea (my favorite pipe dream?) is to get a bunch of horseplayers together to start their own racing association, sell stock to raise money and buy or start their own track and then run it any way they see fit. It can be non-profit with the profits going to pay back investors. I believe non-profits are allowed to borrow money? However, even though it is a pipe dream, it sure would be fun if it could happen.

A man like Ron Geary bought Ellis Park. So it can be done. I don't see any reason that a group of determined horseplayers couldn't join forces and purchase a racetrack.

My handicapping says it is more likely that a group of horseplayers could buy their own track than it is that a group of horseplayers could convince a large number of bettors to boycott.

Just my two cents. As usual, probably not worth half that. In fact, if you read this far, I may owe you money!
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Old 09-07-2010, 05:56 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by chickenhead
maybe as part of the boycott we could all pool our money that we would have played in California, and bet it into any California Pick 6 carryovers that pop up. Then we could still bet our normal handle at SoCal, but most days we'd technically be boycotting.

Kind of a win-win.

/s
To me that seems like just giving the track the handle we were working to withhold from them, only now at an even higher takeout rate.

Pooling the money to attack a P6 carryover outside CA might mske sense if we needed to prove how much was being kept out CA pools, but how could you seriously handle the funds and guarantee their safety as well as a full proportionate, legal payout ro each contributor? Wouldn't we would need a collectvely owned ADW to do something like that?

Until you figure out how to make that work, I'll just keep betting Monmouth P4s and P5s on my own.
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Old 09-07-2010, 07:11 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swetyejohn
thoughts...

This thread is like rubber necking while driving past a car accident -- for some reason it is hard not to look.

So as long as I'm looking I may as well share my thoughts.

CA racing powers felt they had to put more money into horseman's pockets in order to keep up the racing population (among other reasons). They figured the easiest way is to tax the horseplayer. And they're right that they will get more money -- in the short term. Racetracks are in crisis and need some serious intervention. Rate hikes are only a short term solution. Increasing business takes hard work and some seriously creative solutions. It's much easier just to take more money from current bettors than it is to come up with innovative ways to find new bettors.

In the short term the horsemen and tracks and maybe even the state of CA will put more money in their pockets. In the longer term there will be less money because horseplayers will wash out quicker. So those marginal players will lose their betting wealth at the expense of horseman et al increasing their wealth.

My second thought is that anyone who is talking about boycotting or is trying to organize a boycott is wasting their time because not enough people are going to boycott. I'd would love it if horseplayers prove me wrong! And I'll be the first to admit I was wrong!!

On the other hand, if people enjoy talking about boycotting here on PA, but are not really serious about it, then it is not a waste of time. It's entertainment.

Try this... go to the racetrack and look around at all the people. Now, try to figure out a strategy to get all those people to NOT bet. The probability of getting enough of them to NOT bet so as to pressure CA tracks to lower takeout is so small as to be zero. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but my money is on an effective boycott by the betting masses never happening.

Third, a boycott probably isn't necessary because so many horseplayers will be washing out due to the takeout increase. They probably won't come back. If you really want a boycott then just be patient. It's slowly happening at this very moment.
Fourth, the one strategy that might work is to get some whales to stop betting. If a whale is presented with a good enough sales pitch they might boycott. It might be a hard sell, but it might depend on the whale. This could go either way.
Fifth, my favorite idea (my favorite pipe dream?) is to get a bunch of horseplayers together to start their own racing association, sell stock to raise money and buy or start their own track and then run it any way they see fit. It can be non-profit with the profits going to pay back investors. I believe non-profits are allowed to borrow money? However, even though it is a pipe dream, it sure would be fun if it could happen.

A man like Ron Geary bought Ellis Park. So it can be done. I don't see any reason that a group of determined horseplayers couldn't join forces and purchase a racetrack.

My handicapping says it is more likely that a group of horseplayers could buy their own track than it is that a group of horseplayers could convince a large number of bettors to boycott.

Just my two cents. As usual, probably not worth half that. In fact, if you read this far, I may owe you money!


Swetyejohn,

Very sharp Post.

Consider that many of the "Whales" have already left California for rebates off shore so they could not make much impact.

There are many things going on in California, there may be more surprises, so do not put the cart before the horse.

I expect I may be asked more on this issue Saturday on Sirius XM by Bill Finley and Dave Johnson.
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Old 09-07-2010, 07:32 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Indulto
To me that seems like just giving the track the handle we were working to withhold from them, only now at an even higher takeout rate.
there may have been some sarcasm in my post.

Most horseplayers talking boycott remind me of the Seinfeld characters in the episode "The Contest ".

One must be Master of thy own Domain.
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:00 PM   #119
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Swetyejohn,

Very sharp Post.

I expect I may be asked more on this issue Saturday on Sirius XM by Bill Finley and Dave Johnson.
Thank you and good luck with the interview!
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:03 PM   #120
Indulto
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there may have been some sarcasm in my post.

Most horseplayers talking boycott remind me of the Seinfeld characters in the episode "The Contest ".

One must be Master of thy own Domain.
I suspected as much, but as I respect most of what you post, I decided to be optimistic.

I suppose being considered a Seinfeld character is a step up for me these days.
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