Religious

[Show Me the Wire]

Another statement illustrating your inconsistencies is below.

Rather, what I see very often in holy writ are mere differences in accounts and far more rarely genuine bible difficulties (defined as something that requires "digging deeply into" the scriptures (perhaps even the full counsel of God, i.e. Genesis to Revelation) to come up with a plausible answer.

You recently told us during the discussion about Apostle Peter God is very specific, down to the word He inspires the human author to write. Basically, you are implying God dictates Scripture.

So if God is so exceptionally specific, why are there general Bible difficulties and why is there the need for plausible answers? The answer there would be no need for plausible answers as there would not be any general Bible difficulties, if God is specific to the word through inspiration.

Are you going to tell us there are general Bible difficulties, because we men have finite minds and cannot understand the infinite mind of God? Well such a response would only beg the question, why would God knowingly give us Scripture we can't really understand.

[Show Me the Wire]

Another quote below by boxcar to thask, about not believing boxcar's knowledge of the mind of God.

You truly don't believe anyone on this planet can have any true knowledge of the mind of God. You certainly don't think of yourself as a sinner, do you?

Tell me boxcar. Is judging a man's heart a sin? Only God in his infinite Glory can judge a man's heart. You say are a sinner, but do you really believe what you say about yourself.

[Show Me the Wire]

Now let us address a sample of boxcar's knowledge of Scripture. Per boxcar, no one received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost.

While discussing how the law of non-cantradiction is not violated by the differing Gospel accounts about the repentant thief boxcar said the following:

And what does this have to do with Lk 17:21 and the fact the promised Holy Spirit wasn't given to anyone until Pentecost?

In reply to Light's statement about that the Gospel of Thomas contained the same saying as the Gospel of John.

I don't see a problem there. The Bible says "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God. And the "word was God".

The above assertion by boxcar is not the first time he said such an interpretation.

The Holy Spirit was not given to anyone until Pentecost -- well after Christ had been crucified, buried, raised from the dead and glorified!

Prior to Pentecost and prior to the ascension, after the resurrection Jesus breathed his Spirit into the Apostles that were present in the upper room. The Apostles certainly received the Holy Spirit of Jesus prior to Pentecost. The Apostles did not receive, prior to Pentecost, the baptism of fire by the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles received the baptism of fire, per John the Baptist's prophecy about Jesus baptizing them with fire on Pentecost.

[Show Me the Wire]

boxcar, judged me to be a liar and in bondage to that sin.

you just cannot not lie, can you? You are in bondage to that sin!

Yes, boxcar you caught me in another lie. for me.

Because I have the Holy Spirit living within me and he will lead me to the truth. Also, my hermeneutic is "infallible" as I interpret the same way
Jesus, the prophets and the apostles interpreted the scriptures.

Your judgments of me place me in a predicament. I do not want to be the cause of you being judged as you judge me. However, your nonsense must be addressed.

BTW how do you know you interpret Scripture in the same way as Jesus. How do you know, where you there and actually experienced it with your five senses?

Did Jesus personally appear to you and teach you? Did the Holy Spirit descend upon you in the physical form of fire?

The prophets interpreted Scripture or did they write Scripture through God's inspiration? Once again how do you know?

The Apostles didn't interpret Scripture. Jesus, the Word Incarnate, personally instructed them in the meaning of the Torah and Talmud.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Another quote below by boxcar to thask, about not believing boxcar's knowledge of the mind of God.

Tell me boxcar. Is judging a man's heart a sin? Only God in his infinite Glory can judge a man's heart. You say are a sinner, but do you really believe what you say about yourself.

Are you working on those two questions I asked you earlier today?

Have you found the Aramaic manuscripts yet for the the Gospel of Matthew?

Are you still searching for the proof text that teaches a third level of priesthood in this New Covenant dispensation?

By the way, I happened to stumble across a Darwin quote that nicely describes how your Lord and Savior and King, that you have said follow so faithfully and love so much, evolved from the muck and mire of the primeval slime, since He, too, was made in every way like his brethren. I thought you would, especially enjoy this, although I'm not as certain about the Jesus of divine revelation:

But there can hardly be any doubts about our descent from the savages. According to current evolutionary teachings, man's genealogy not only reaches back into the animal kingdom, but right back to simple inorganic molecules:Primeval soup, primitive slime, primeval cell; single-celled organisms then became multi=cellular: worms, fishes, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, primitive primates, apes, ape-men, hominids, man. -- The Descent of Man (emphasis mine)

So, you see...you don't have to go to any mass or have a black robe stick a wafer in your mouth -- your version of Jesus is in everything in the universe. When you have your toast in the morning, you're eating his body. When you drink your OJ, you're drinking up Jesus. And at lunch time, he's in your bologna sandwich. If you have your lunch with an ice cold brewski, you're swigging down the Lamb. And if you have any pets, don't forget to hug 'em and kiss 'em because Jesus is in those little critters too! "Whatsoever you do to one of these little critters, you do unto me." (There's probably a verse out there somewhere to this effect that didn't evolve from oral tradition to written -- probably was edited out of the canon.) I bet the thought never entered your mind just how close to Jesus you really are 24/7! Maybe Jesus was really hinting at Pantheism, cryptically, in his Bread of Life Discourse?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

boxcar, judged me to be a liar and in bondage to that sin.



Yes, boxcar you caught me in another lie. for me.



Your judgments of me place me in a predicament. I do not want to be the cause of you being judged as you judge me. However, your nonsense must be addressed.

BTW how do you know you interpret Scripture in the same way as Jesus. How do you know, where you there and actually experienced it with your five senses?

Did Jesus personally appear to you and teach you? Did the Holy Spirit descend upon you in the physical form of fire?

The prophets interpreted Scripture or did they write Scripture through God's inspiration? Once again how do you know?

The Apostles didn't interpret Scripture. Jesus, the Word Incarnate, personally instructed them in the meaning of the Torah and Talmud.

Did Jesus believe in evolution or Creation?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Geesh...I don't know...should I Google it?

So you don't know what it means. By all means Google it.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Those "logical fallacies" are all figments of your overworked imagination.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Now let us address a sample of boxcar's knowledge of Scripture. Per boxcar, no one received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost.

While discussing how the law of non-cantradiction is not violated by the differing Gospel accounts about the repentant thief boxcar said the following:



In reply to Light's statement about that the Gospel of Thomas contained the same saying as the Gospel of John.



The above assertion by boxcar is not the first time he said such an interpretation.




Prior to Pentecost and prior to the ascension, after the resurrection Jesus breathed his Spirit into the Apostles that were present in the upper room. The Apostles certainly received the Holy Spirit of Jesus prior to Pentecost. The Apostles did not receive, prior to Pentecost, the baptism of fire by the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles received the baptism of fire, per John the Baptist's prophecy about Jesus baptizing them with fire on Pentecost.

You just cannot not lie, can you? (Oh wait, I asked this once already today, didn't I?

Two things: Jesus did not breathe the Holy Spirit into the 11; He breathed ON them.

John 20:22
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
NASB

What happened to the 11 before His ascension was probably something very similar to what happened to king Saul (1Sam 10:6-10. Or for that matter king David. But insofar as the baptism of the Spirit by which believers where indwelt, that did not happen until the official and divinely appointed inauguration of the Church at Pentecost.

Acts 1:7-8
7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth. "
NASB

And these words were fulfilled 10 days later at Pentecost when the 11 were with over 100 other disciples.

Acts 2:1-4
2 And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent, rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
NASB

Going from memory, that particular Pentecost also marked the Feast of Firstfruits and Feast of Weeks and also marked a Jubilee year. If so, this would be very significant because that Jewish feast day symbolized no small amount of profound spiritual truth. (This feast of Jubilee is something I intend to study in earnest in the foreseeable future since Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy consist of 10 Jubilees, which I think could be very significant. But I digress...) The fact remains that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the Church did not officially occur until Pentecost.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

So you don't know what it means. By all means Google it.

I'll put in on my long list of Things To Do.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

boxcar, judged me to be a liar and in bondage to that sin.



Yes, boxcar you caught me in another lie. for me.



Your judgments of me place me in a predicament. I do not want to be the cause of you being judged as you judge me. However, your nonsense must be addressed.

BTW how do you know you interpret Scripture in the same way as Jesus. How do you know, where you there and actually experienced it with your five senses?

Did Jesus personally appear to you and teach you? Did the Holy Spirit descend upon you in the physical form of fire?

The prophets interpreted Scripture or did they write Scripture through God's inspiration? Once again how do you know?

The Apostles didn't interpret Scripture. Jesus, the Word Incarnate, personally instructed them in the meaning of the Torah and Talmud.

Ultimately, I have only one Teacher: The Holy Spirit.

And if the apostles didn't interpret scripture, then how could the preach the gospel out of the OT accurately?

And do you have chapter and version on that Talmud thingy, since the Talmud was not part of the Jewish canon? Did Jesus every quote from the Talmud? Or are you pulling that one out of your nether regions?

[boxcar]

Prov 30:5-6
5 "Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
NIV

Verse 6 is the reason that ShowMe never gave me a straight answer to my two questions that I asked the other day that dealt with the issue of whether oral tradition of the apostles, for example, would necessarily harmonize with the written Word. In other words, would the apostles contradict themselves?

ShowMe, are you still amongst the living? If so, take at time out from erecting your altar to Darwin and tackle this issue. Darwin can wait...after all, he's dead. (And he's probably celebrating this fact in his grave because many secular evolutionists applaud death and expound its virtues in the universe, for they say that without it there would be life.)

[Actor]

Check out the modern day example at 9:40
[YT="Evolution of Jesus"]XKAHoYCWXF8[/YT]

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Check out the modern day example at 9:40
[YT="Evolution of Jesus"]XKAHoYCWXF8[/YT]

Where did these "scholarly" atheists come up with a time line of 50-150 A.D. for completion of the NT canon? From where did they pull those numbers? Of course, they want to believe their own horse droppings in this respect in order to come up with the fourth "L" for Jesus. But scripture itself won't allow this because the writers were either eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ or other writers relied on the testimony from contemporary eyewitnesses who were also eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ.

How many eyewitnesses did that Hercules clown have?

As I have frequently pointed out, all the NT books (including and especially Revelation!) were very likely written prior to 70 A.D., since this date in Jewish history speaks to monumental historical events in Israel, making it very unlikely that no NT writer writing after this date would have failed to make mention of these events at all, most especially since the first century church did have a large number of Jewish converts to Christianity. We are to believe that the OT books written subsequent to the Assyrian invasion of Israel did reference that big historical event, and well as did writers of OT books written after the Babylonian invasion of Judah reference that event also, which was even a larger historical milestone -- but yet the Diaspora of 70 A.D. which made the former two taken together pale by comparison never made it into the NT writings, even those all but two of those NT books were written by Jews?

What are you and your atheistic "bible scholars" smoking, Actor?

[Actor]

I notice you did not address the issue of the Rebbe.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Where did these "scholarly" atheists come up with a time line of 50-150 A.D. for completion of the NT canon?

http://www.amazon.com/Historicity-Je...ichard+carrier

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Conspir...s=d.m.+murdock

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Never-Ex...neth+humphreys

Originally Posted by boxcar

Of course, they want to believe their own horse droppings in this respect in order to come up with the fourth "L" for Jesus.

Argumentum ad Lapidem.
Argumentum ad Hominem. Your favorite.

Originally Posted by boxcar

But scripture itself won't allow this because the writers were either eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ or other writers relied on the testimony from contemporary eyewitnesses who were also eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ.

Simply not true. Opere citato. (In the works cited.)

Originally Posted by boxcar

How many eyewitnesses did that Hercules clown have?

Same number: ZERO.

Originally Posted by boxcar

As I have frequently pointed out, all the NT books (including and especially Revelation!) were very likely written prior to 70 A.D., since this date in Jewish history speaks to monumental historical events in Israel, making it very unlikely that no NT writer writing after this date would have failed to make mention of these events at all, most especially since the first century church did have a large number of Jewish converts to Christianity.

Emphasis mine. This "fact" points to exactly the opposite conclusion. Early Christianity was primarily a Greek/Persian religion (rooted in Herculeanism and Zoroastrianism) with few Jewish converts. Why should they give a damn about Jewish history? In the letters you will not find any reference to any location of the alleged events. The author of Mark chose the Palestinian setting for reasons unknown and the others simply followed suit.

Originally Posted by boxcar

We are to believe that the OT books written subsequent to the Assyrian invasion of Israel did reference that big historical event, and well as did writers of OT books written after the Babylonian invasion of Judah reference that event also, which was even a larger historical milestone -- but yet the Diaspora of 70 A.D. which made the former two taken together pale by comparison ...

Au contraire. The former two each were events by which empires rose and fell. The diaspora (which may have occurred as late as 150 C.E.) was a mere footnote in history.

Originally Posted by boxcar

... never made it into the NT writings, even those all but two of those NT books were written by Jews?

What is your evidence for that claim? I think it more likely that they were all written by Greeks. I doubt it could be proven either way. Certainly they were all (with the possible exception of the letter to the Hebrews) written in Greek.

Originally Posted by boxcar

What are you and your atheistic "bible scholars" smoking, Actor?

Argumentium ad hominem.

[boxcar]

The Diaspora is well established in secular history and occurred in 70 A.D. -- and in fact was preceded by the Jewish Wars which began in 66 A.D. Bone up on Josephus. He wrote a great deal about the Jewish Wars, the destruction of Jerusalem, it's temple and the resulting scattering of the Jews from their homeland -- something he could not have done if all that occurred in 150. This was a huge historical event in the history of national Israel. Therefore, to postulate that such an catastrophic event in which over 1 million Jews were killed, and that also resulted in the dismantling of the nation itself, would have been omitted from NT writings penned mostly by Jews is beyond unreasonable. In fact...such an hypothesis is patently absurd! The only way to account for this silence is that the NT canon was complete prior to 70 A.D., and possibly even before the Jewish Wars began in 66 A.D.!