What I don't like about Pinnacle - Page 3 - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Zman179 · 06-27-2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrbauer

Zman wrote:
"And I personally didn't care for their pick 3/4 policy with scratches."

Comment:
Why not? Where else can you play and get refunds on dead cominations?

Downstream-leg scratches cause refunds on ALL combinations that included the scratched horse. Even the ones that have already lost!

You don't like that?

How do I say this? Ummm....NO

Because that means that I could get a refund on live combinations as well. And considering that I use many bombs in my pick 3's and 4's, I want to see it through, especially if those bombs have been clicking. The LAST thing that I want is to have two $30 horses in the first two legs of a pick 3, get a scratch in the last leg and get my crummy $2 back. No way!!! I'd rather ride with the favorite because even if the fav wins, I could be looking at a tax ticket.
And with some jurisdictions like New York & New Jersey, I won't even get the fav. I'll get a conso payoff instead. Refunds, schmeefunds. If I pick a winning bomb, I want to aim for the bullseye.

Nickle · 06-27-2005, 08:12 PM

Pinnacle does not support

ex key boxes

example 4/1,2 (box)

Frustrating

Jeff P · 06-27-2005, 09:59 PM

A follow up note to my earlier post about the ticket that they refused to cancel. Yesterday I received an email from their MGR. The body of that email reiterated their non-cancellation policy and went on to say "we are not set up to offer that service." I guess I'm just S.O.L on that one.

A couple of other notes about them. Check the grading of your tickets carefully. Every now and then I find they will have graded a winning ticket as a loser, or graded it as a winner but somehow managed to pay out less than they should have. I have caught many winning double and pick three tickets where they have paid out the consolation payoff instead of the winning payoff. I don't think they do this intentionally. I think it's more along the lines that they have a general "clerk" type individual grading the tickets who really doesn't know the difference between a consolation double and a winning double combination.

rrbauer wrote -

Quote:

Zman wrote:
"And I personally didn't care for their pick 3/4 policy with scratches."

Comment:
Why not? Where else can you play and get refunds on dead cominations?

Downstream-leg scratches cause refunds on ALL combinations that included the scratched horse. Even the ones that have already lost!

You don't like that?

I do have one inherent problem with this. After tracking hundreds of bets that I have made through them vs bets made through YouBet, I don't think they are just offsetting risk by matching my action into the mutuel pools. I am just about CONVINCED they are - in some cases - literally pouring money at amounts many times my bet into the mutuel pools. Given that I think they are doing this, then when a horse I have in a later leg of a pick3 or pick4 scratches out, and the race is won by the post time favorite, and my ticket would have been a winner had it been made at a racetrack or otb - in that specific instance - if they are offsetting risk by dumping my action into the pools - then they are profiting from my action but not paying out to the player who made the bet. Instead of paying me for a ticket that would have been a winner had I placed the bet anywhere else, they are refunding my action and collecting what the track pays them. And that is something I have a problem with.

Now, is getting a refund better for me under those circumstances in the long run? I'm not sure I know the real answer. I haven't kept records of that specific scenario. But I can say this much. I literally hate it when horses I have in latter legs of a pick3 or pick4 scratch out if I have a live combo going.

-jp

.

chuck · 06-27-2005, 11:03 PM

Jeff P

Take a look at threads at Horsestreet and at HTR, reporting the exact thing that you are reporting. Pinnacle KNOWS that you are a winning player and SENDS it in with their own money to lessen their impact of you winning.

http://www.horsestreet.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001279.html

Look at posts by user "Rook"

GR1@HTR · 06-27-2005, 11:14 PM

Be careful w/ tracks that take the have a min wager below $1. The last couple of P4's I hit at LS, I was only credited for the .50 payout vs the $1 payout...to pinnacle's credit, they corrected it w/in 5 minutes of an email to them...

chuck · 06-27-2005, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Jeff P

Take a look at threads at Horsestreet and at HTR, reporting the exact thing that you are reporting. Pinnacle KNOWS that you are a winning player and SENDS it in with their own money to lessen their impact of you winning.

http://www.horsestreet.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001279.html

Look at posts by user "Rook"

Basically, they know who are the winning players are based on your past history and are canibalizing your payoffs to save themselves some bucks. It is a win/win for them they know who are the losers and keep all of their play, for the winners they send it in to the mutel pool to lower your payoffs.

Just my guess based on what I've read.

highnote · 06-27-2005, 11:52 PM

My suggestion is to use the "hit and run" technique.

Make a lot of $2 cover bets. Make them at random and you'll only lose about 17% but you'll get a rebate so maybe you'll only lose 10%.

Then when you're ready hit hard with a big bet that you think has a chance of winning. This might throw them off your trail once or twice.

Then don't bet with them for awhile. After a period of time try the same technique.

Just a thought.

----

Another technique might be to make a bunch of $2 wagers that actually win. Then they'll start booking your action. Gradually up your wagers. They should do the same. Then, one day, make a decent sized bet on a losing horse. Hopefully, they'll send it in.

Then you go on a betting exchange and lay the hell out of that horse.

Good luck.

Jeff P · 06-27-2005, 11:54 PM

Before anyone gets the idea that I'm trying to slam them - I'm not. I've just pointed out some of the negatives. It's only fair if I point out a few of the positives. First, I am told by some knowlegeable sources that they are very well backed. Which translates into reputable. They always pay. And they never slow pay. They are also willing to gamble with you. I love their head to head horse matchups. Their linesmaker is pretty sharp. In fact I think he's a little tougher to beat him than the general public and the takeout. But he is beatable. Every once in a while he's dead wrong about a matchup. And I LOVE being able to back my opinion when I see a matchup differently than he does. They also offer a wide variety of North American tracks - something I have come to appreciate - because being a CA resident, if I show up at HOL, SA, or DMR - I'm limited by state regs to 22 or 23 out of state simulcast races per day. How stupid is that? And then there's that rebate (7 percent) which does add up over time. All in all I'm glad they're there - even if I don't like some of what they do.

Chuck - I KNOW they're cannibalizing some of my payoffs. The question becomes: As a player, am I better off letting them do that - and getting 7 percent back from them in return? Or am I better off taking my action somewhere else - maybe someplace not so well backed - where I might be getting a lower rebate? Or maybe someplace like YouBet or TVG where I won't get a rebate - but where all of my action goes into the pools - and no one cannibalizes my payoffs?

-jp

.

highnote · 06-28-2005, 12:14 AM

Sounds like it's time to do what frustrated actors did -- they got together and formed their own studio -- United Artists.

Imagine if 1,000 horseplayers would get together and put up 1,000 each to form a rebate shop. That would be $1,000,000 seed money to form the corporation. A board of directors could be elected and their job would be to oversee the formation of the rebate shop -- United Horseplayers, Inc.

Everyone would get one share and each share would entitle them to one vote. Shares would not be for sale to other shareholders -- that way no one can come in and take over the company. A share can only be sold to a new member. There would be no corporate owners either -- only individuals. We don't want Churchill Downs or Magna owning our company.

With a million dollars and a thousand serious players, UHI would instantly be a force in the industry. I suppose a million dollars isn't that much these days -- but with a thousand members that's a lot of betting power.

The best part is we'd have the highest rebates in the industry because we'd be the customer, the rebate shop, the middleman and everything else.

Maybe we could set aside 1/3 of 1% in escrow. When we have enough money we can buy our own track.

There would be some growing pains to be sure. But it would sure be fun to raise a little hell in this industry while at the same time owning your own betting shop.

BillW · 06-28-2005, 12:26 AM

John,

I have a funny feeling this would be analogous to opening your own crack business because you were tired of paying mob prices. As soon as you became "known" you would become an intant target of all the politicians that have their hand in the candy jar, not to mention Stronach, TVG, the casinos etc. After that your total participation would be consumed defending yourself from that onslaught. You would be defenseless with a warchest of only $1 Million

.

Bill

Dave Schwartz · 06-28-2005, 02:14 AM

Sorry guys... but I had to remove that thread. A little too much information from a certain guy who lives in Nevada where interstate wagering is not legal.

highnote · 06-28-2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillW

John,

I have a funny feeling this would be analogous to opening your own crack business because you were tired of paying mob prices. As soon as you became "known" you would become an intant target of all the politicians that have their hand in the candy jar, not to mention Stronach, TVG, the casinos etc. After that your total participation would be consumed defending yourself from that onslaught. You would be defenseless with a warchest of only $1 Million

.

Bill

There would definately be startup pains.

Nickle · 06-29-2005, 11:57 AM

Pinnacle is fine for offshore options

I still like my money though in legal USA shops

Dave Schwartz · 06-29-2005, 03:03 PM

What always gets me about the "illegal" shops is that they always say something like, "If you are betting illegally, we get to keep all your money."

rrbauer · 06-29-2005, 05:17 PM

Jeff P wrote:
"Now, is getting a refund better for me under those circumstances in the long run? I'm not sure I know the real answer. I haven't kept records of that specific scenario. But I can say this much. I literally hate it when horses I have in latter legs of a pick3 or pick4 scratch out if I have a live combo going."

Comment:
I hate it too. But, I believe the offset from getting refunds on all of the combinations, live or dead, offsets the alternative; which is, getting the post-time fav in the scratch race and needing it to win in order to stay alive, when it may be a horse that you didn't even use. I've been playing with these guys for a couple years and I keep records and I will take the refunds all day long.

As far as ZMan's point about using big-price horses in early legs and needing a downstream win to take home the money, I prefer to take my money from big-number hosses via the win pool, directly, and not subject them to downstream risk unless I'm banging the "all" button in the downstream race(s). I have made this point countless times on this board and I'm sure that I'm correct: When they give you the big number, you take it pronto, and don't outsmart yourself with unecessary risks in other races. If you're running on short bread and trying to gain leverage via multi-race bets to hit a moon shot I think that strategy is subject to far more risk from losing a downstream leg outright, than from getting shortchanged via a scratch that "only" gets you your money back. IMHO of course.