Rick Dutrow - Time served is enough

[dilanesp]

When you study criminal law in law school, one of its purposes is deterrence. Essentially, a person goes to jail not simply as punishment for his own crimes, but also to set an example for others. To let the next person know that if she does the same thing, she can expect to be treated harshly.

The key point about deterrence is that pleas for clemency hurt it. if the next person figures she needn't worry about getting the maximum punishment, she may decide it is more worth the risk.

Rick Dutrow wasn't given 10 years because of a careful analysis of how long the sport needed to be protected from him. He was given it so everybody else knew what would happen to repeat offenders.

Further, it is always the rich and connected who get the organized pleas for mercy. Dutrow's father was himself a major trainer. He obviously has powerful friends. If he was some nobody from Emerald Downs there would be no plea signed by famous trainers.

It is extremely important that Dutrow serve his full sentence. It will show that your powerful friends can't help you when you do this.

[slewis]

Lol... and you think that it was what Rick was giving him that made Big Brown a super racehorse but a failure at the breeding shed?

Your knowledge of Thoroughbred breeding history needs more study.

Secondly, if you think those at Claiborne farm are stupid, you are wrong.
Spend time on the inside of this game and you'll learn that the biggest and smartest farms in this sport take risks with stallions and sometimes lose.
Would you like examples?

[slewis]

That's great counsellor. Now go read the definition of "Arbitrary and Capricious".

[thaskalos]

Slewis...here is what you seem to miss:

This is a site populated mainly by horseplayers...and sympathy for cheating trainers is in short supply here. When the argument is made that other trainers in the game are bigger cheaters than Dutrow, then the sentiment here will most likely be that the other cheating trainers should be handed 10-year suspensions too...not that Dutrow should be reinstated after serving only half his sentence.

[slewis]

I fully understand and I'm very sympathetic.
I used to be an active player too and have experienced the pain of getting beat by a trainer I thought was taking an edge.

But everyone has to understand that this is America. You can't take a man's life away unless it's predefined as to what the punishments are and for how long and how many. And, we reasonably can be assured that the rules are the same for everyone. Until the day comes when positives (or at least copies of) go to a district attorneys office, I'm not comfortable at all with the status quo.

I'm telling everyone that trainers get positives swept under the rug while others are hung out to dry.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by slewis

I fully understand and I'm very sympathetic.
I used to be an active player too and have experienced the pain of getting beat by a trainer I thought was taking an edge.

But everyone has to understand that this is America. You can't take a man's life away unless it's predefined as to what the punishments are and for how long and how many. And, we reasonably can be assured that the rules are the same for everyone. Until the day comes when positives (or at least copies of) go to a district attorneys office, I'm not comfortable at all with the status quo.

I'm telling everyone that trainers get positives swept under the rug while others are hung out to dry.

I think most of us here are aware of the fact that positives get swept under the rug for certain trainers. I am reminded of a column that Andy Beyer wrote some years ago...where he revealed that drug positives in some stakes races in California were only given slap-on-the-wrist fines without any publicity, because the authorities there were worried about further tarnishing the game's already maligned reputation.

IMO...Dutrow was treated as a "sacrificial lamb"...and his excessive suspension was a smokescreen, meant to shield the improprieties of other trainers...while giving the impression to the long-suffering fan that the industry was finally "cracking down" on trainer thievery. But, as I said before...the horseplayer has no appetite for any "pleas for mercy" for thieving trainers...no matter HOW "unfairly" they may have been treated by the establishment.

Yes...Dutrow was denied his livelihood at the track for the last 5 years. But, let's not forget that he wasn't exactly INNOCENT. The game sets the rules...and the players break them at their peril. The game doesn't owe ANYBODY a "living".

[jay68802]

Originally Posted by slewis

Lol... and you think that it was what Rick was giving him that made Big Brown a super racehorse but a failure at the breeding shed?

Your knowledge of Thoroughbred breeding history needs more study.

Secondly, if you think those at Claiborne farm are stupid, you are wrong.
Spend time on the inside of this game and you'll learn that the biggest and smartest farms in this sport take risks with stallions and sometimes lose.
Would you like examples?

Big Brown

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by slewis

That's great counsellor. Now go read the definition of "Arbitrary and Capricious".

Deterrent sentences are not arbitrary and capricious (a term whose legal meaning I suspect you do not even know). Deterrence is, along with rehabilitation, incapacitation, and punishment, one of the four legally permissible purposes of a criminal sentence. Indeed, caselaw permits both specific deterrence (deterring the specific offender from offending again) and general deterrence (deterring other offenders).

There is nothing arbitrary about "throwing the book" at a particular offender to reduce the likelihood that others offend. Nothing at all.

If you don't like this, fine, you don't like the Anglo-American justice system. But it isn't unfair for Rick Dutrow to be severely punished pursuant to its basic principles, just because he is wealthy and is from an established family in racing and has a bunch of powerful friends who will try to run interference for him and his repeated acts of dishonesty, animal cruelty, and cheating.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by Denny

Tom, you were the one I most had in mind. Have you bothered to look at the facts? Or is your mind made up without even reading the article?

I'll stay out of it and let the rest of you have your say and decide for yourselves what's right.

Let him serve his time and than come back.

This time off from racing maybe has shown him the error or his ways.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by slewis

Lol... and you think that it was what Rick was giving him that made Big Brown a super racehorse but a failure at the breeding shed?

Your knowledge of Thoroughbred breeding history needs more study.

Secondly, if you think those at Claiborne farm are stupid, you are wrong.
Spend time on the inside of this game and you'll learn that the biggest and smartest farms in this sport take risks with stallions and sometimes lose.
Would you like examples?

Boundary yuck,

Big brown was a bad risk.

Allan

[Pensacola Pete]

It isn't as though Dutrow's suspension has reduced the amount of cheating done by others. If anything, it's made them more cagey.

Or are there supposed to be dozens of guys, who either weren't in the business ten years ago or were lucky to reach a 10% strike rate, now hitting 30%+ winners?

The pharmacists should stand in the winner's circle with party hats on, blow cardboard New Years horns, and shout "Surprise!" when their deep closer who hasn't been within 5 lengths of the pace at any call in its last ten races wires the field and pays $8.60.

Fixing it properly by going after everybody who's cheating would result in a scandal of such vast proportions, that involved hundreds, if not thousands of people, that the industry would be effectively terminated. From the point of view of the industry, it's better to have cheating, lack of growth, and slowly-crumbling infrastructure than nothing at all.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Pensacola Pete

It isn't as though Dutrow's suspension has reduced the amount of cheating done by others. If anything, it's made them more cagey.

Or are there supposed to be dozens of guys, who either weren't in the business ten years ago or were lucky to reach a 10% strike rate, now hitting 30%+ winners?

The pharmacists should stand in the winner's circle with party hats on, blow cardboard New Years horns, and shout "Surprise!" when their deep closer who hasn't been within 5 lengths of the pace at any call in its last ten races wires the field and pays $8.60.

Fixing it properly by going after everybody who's cheating would result in a scandal of such vast proportions, that involved hundreds, if not thousands of people, that the industry would be effectively terminated. From the point of view of the industry, it's better to have cheating, lack of growth, and slowly-crumbling infrastructure than nothing at all.

I can't speak to the rest of the country, but Southern California used to have several 30 percent trainers with big bsrns. Now we have one, and his barn is full of the most expensive sales graduates.

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by Denny

The last time I posted a comment in favor of Dale Roman's petition to have Mr Dutrow's suspension reduced to time served, I got a lot of flak and push-back from many of you here at PA.

Maybe some of you will reconsider your hard-line positions after reading the following:

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-T...s-license-rei/

Denny

Who in their right mind comes to a horse racing website and cites a story which blames Barry Bonds for any of horse racing's problems, and expects that story to carry any weight at all?



One need do no more than view Dutrow Jr's. career record as a trainer to gain a strong sense that he's no more than a man who found the good stuff and then rode the crest of his discovery, for a while, until the jig was up.

(as has been the case for many other criminals throughout time)

A major difference is, while most criminals do indeed have every right to re-enter public society after the terms of their sentences are up, no private entity such as a race track need ever permit such a criminal on its grounds again. No just cause is needed.


Consider that, sixteen years after Rick Dutrow Jr. started his first horse, he had but two career wins.

Soon after, he rocketed to 28% and never had a complete year below 22% winners again.


As for the lack of positive drug tests, the measure of a criminal in the court of public opinion is not, and should never be based on how many times he got caught.


Dutrow's plight is a lot like that of "the fog jockey", where perhaps nobody saw him do it, but lengthy suspensions were still appropriate in both cases.

Dutrow's collection of friends bothering to sign a petition is a pointless exercise and bound to be as effective as petitioning the neighbors surrounding your average criminal's free-world residence as if that should be enough will to have the criminal set free.

In the end, Dutrow and Carmouche get the same reputation despite their parallel sentiments:

"I know I ain't did it."

[stuball]

Put me down as wanting to let him come back but only as a bathroom attendant or a hot dog server -- I hate cheaters of any kind and it is a well established fact he cheated...The other trainers are looking out for themselves if he comes back it establishes a precedent that they can use if they are ever in that position...precedent is all inportant

Stuball

[Denny]

Thank you for all the contributions, especially the ones from inside the game.
I'm just a horseplayer and only know what goes on from the outside.

My take so far from the comments:

Horseracing is a crooked-ass game - which I've always known.

Horseplayers are a hard-assed bunch - more so than I knew.

[I'd like to hear more from people that really know. Especially what goes on at the highest levels. Have always suspected that the more money on the line, the more cheating that goes on.
They drilled Oscar back in the day too. Couldn't stand to have their blue-bloods beaten by claimers. (Think I'm happiest betting the lower-level races and will concentrate on them.)
But, now I'm going off topic.]

Carry on.