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04-02-2018, 01:18 PM
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#46
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
What's not true? That he didn't take EXCELLENT care of his horses?
Oh yes he did.
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What the hell are you basing that on? That it's become the mantra of the "Free Dutrow!" crowd?
I'd like to see decades of stats, but those provided here don't back up the claim of EXCELLENT care. Contrary to Ruffian's beliefs, the most careful horsemen have a 1 in every 3-5 year on-track death, and maybe 1 in a lifelong career die of a heart attack (if ever).
I'm with you on Baffert and think he's the one who should've been kicked out of the sport for 10 years (and some others deserve similar), but I'm just wanting to stop the silliness that Dutrow was extraordinary in his care of horses and it's some mitigating factor. At best, it looks like he took average care.
Last edited by Fager Fan; 04-02-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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04-02-2018, 01:39 PM
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#47
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
I suppose so...if by "sound" you mean "histrionic" or "given to hyperbole".
That aside, what do you make of those opoids, nerve blocking agents, etc.?
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Not quite.
"calls into question THE CLAIM that his success was based on SOME SORT OF "TALENT" to train horses"
Read it a few more times then come back and tell me I'm the one using histrionics.
First off, by using the word CLAIM, you're immediately calling his talent into question. Then you specifically call his talent into question by implying his success was based more on his "rampant" use of pharmaceuticals rather than "some sort of talent."
The use of "some sort" was a nice touch as well.
Bonus points to you.
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04-02-2018, 01:41 PM
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#48
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
What the hell are you basing that on? That it's become the mantra of the "Free Dutrow!" crowd?
I'd like to see decades of stats, but those provided here don't back up the claim of EXCELLENT care. Contrary to Ruffian's beliefs, the most careful horsemen have a 1 in every 3-5 year on-track death, and maybe 1 in a lifelong career die of a heart attack (if ever).
I'm with you on Baffert and think he's the one who should've been kicked out of the sport for 10 years (and some others deserve similar), but I'm just wanting to stop the silliness that Dutrow was extraordinary in his care of horses and it's some mitigating factor. At best, it looks like he took average care.
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From our other encounters on here, you're not the best example of someone with a firm grip on multiple topics, so I bow out of this with you.
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04-02-2018, 01:54 PM
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#49
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
From our other encounters on here, you're not the best example of someone with a firm grip on multiple topics, so I bow out of this with you.
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So in other words, you've got nothing. Do you even know how to put a halter on a horse? Ever ridden one in your life? How many top 35 trainers have you employed for your horses? So maybe you should stick to your expertise which is limited to installing internet forum software once, as best I can see.
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04-02-2018, 01:57 PM
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
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How many times was Dutrow fined or suspended in this game? Doesn't there come a time when it becomes obvious that a heavier sentence must be handed down when the "regular punishment" no longer works as much of a deterrent?
__________________
Live to play another day.
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04-02-2018, 02:00 PM
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#51
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
So in other words, you've got nothing. Do you even know how to put a halter on a horse? Ever ridden one in your life? How many top 35 trainers have you employed for your horses? So maybe you should stick to your expertise which is limited to installing internet forum software once, as best I can see.
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Yes.
Yes.
None.
GFY
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04-02-2018, 02:10 PM
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
How many times was Dutrow fined or suspended in this game? Doesn't there come a time when it becomes obvious that a heavier sentence must be handed down when the "regular punishment" no longer works as much of a deterrent?
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I agree. I can see where Dutrow getting a lifetime ban is unfair compared to the other trainers with similar lists of offenses who haven't been banned. However, to me that means racing should have cracked down on others and given them similar bans, not that we should lift the punishment for one of the few times racing actually enforced the rules.
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04-02-2018, 02:17 PM
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#53
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaway01
I agree. I can see where Dutrow getting a lifetime ban is unfair compared to the other trainers with similar lists of offenses who haven't been banned. However, to me that means racing should have cracked down on others and given them similar bans, not that we should lift the punishment for one of the few times racing actually enforced the rules.
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Forget similar. What about trainers with far worse "lists?"
I went and looked over Dutrow's "list."
Most of the violations are for late administrative paperwork or errors or other non-medication non-horse-health violations.
As for meds, they were detailed above. One that wasn't mentioned was for a Lasix violation.
And many of the legal med violations were for very minor overages above the legal limit.
One thing you can accuse him of accurately was that he was sloppy and lazy in a couple of necessary departments, which led to a lot of these violations.
Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 04-02-2018 at 02:18 PM.
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04-02-2018, 02:28 PM
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
I didn't come close to remotely saying that.
Another poster said it was "simply wrong" and "nowhere close to the truth" that Dutrow cheated with "drugs and needles".
My post completely refuted that (i.e, the poster's statement was Bullshit).
I didn't make any assertion with respect to the care of his horses.
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Your post completely refuted nothing.
Where did your post prove he ever used any needles and please don't tell me the story about Barney Fife finding them in the drawer of his desk in the office.
Talk about Bullshit !
As for the drug positives, I think PA has spoken to that so I won't repeat it.
Last edited by Ruffian1; 04-02-2018 at 02:30 PM.
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04-02-2018, 02:30 PM
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#55
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
Yes.
Yes.
None.
GFY
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Put CJ in quite a pickle, didn't ya? That's a demerit right there.
Maybe you should stick to the topic instead of causing it to derail by taking a personal shot at someone.
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04-02-2018, 02:31 PM
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#56
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
Put CJ in quite a pickle, didn't ya? That's a demerit right there.
Maybe you should stick to the topic instead of causing it to derail by taking a personal shot at someone.
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Personal shot?
Asking if I ever sniffed actual horse shit wasn't personal?
My last line stands.
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04-02-2018, 02:36 PM
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
What the hell are you basing that on? That it's become the mantra of the "Free Dutrow!" crowd?
I'd like to see decades of stats, but those provided here don't back up the claim of EXCELLENT care. Contrary to Ruffian's beliefs, the most careful horsemen have a 1 in every 3-5 year on-track death, and maybe 1 in a lifelong career die of a heart attack (if ever).
I'm with you on Baffert and think he's the one who should've been kicked out of the sport for 10 years (and some others deserve similar), but I'm just wanting to stop the silliness that Dutrow was extraordinary in his care of horses and it's some mitigating factor. At best, it looks like he took average care.
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It was never my mantra.
I laughed at it in my original post. Did you reread it?
Let's face it, nobody in the business can actually call this what it is and not be punished for what they say.
I think plenty of people understand that.
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04-02-2018, 02:49 PM
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#58
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruffian1
Your post completely refuted nothing.
Where did your post prove he ever used any needles and please don't tell me the story about Barney Fife finding them in the drawer of his desk in the office.
Talk about Bullshit !
As for the drug positives, I think PA has spoken to that so I won't repeat it.
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They were found. Do you have any proof they were planted?
I know that the plant defense was also the one used for Biancone. I don't think that we can go with the plant defense, do you? Not without any evidence?
As for Dutrow, I don't know why you all don't think administrative problems aren't problems. Didn't he even have horses scratched because he didn't get their papers on file? Having the papers on file is what every trainer has to make sure of every day, and if they all took it with the lack of regard that Dutrow did then it'd be quite a mess every race day.
I'm good with anyone who wants to say 10 years was too long, but I don't see all those who make light of his long list of being the "problem child" of trainers at the track. Wasn't he a grown up who could've at least hired someone to take care of all the paperwork if he had no intention of playing by the rules of life, which unfortunately does include paperwork?
And I don't see "great care" as a mitigating factor either. All SHOULD take great care, so you don't get a gold star for doing what you're supposed to do in that regard.
We've got people arguing over this from the standpoints of defending or not defending Dutrow, when I think we all agree that the penalties of racing aren't applied equally and fairly.
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04-02-2018, 02:50 PM
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#59
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
Personal shot?
Asking if I ever sniffed actual horse shit wasn't personal?
My last line stands.
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You need reminding who took the first shot?
From our other encounters on here, you're not the best example of someone with a firm grip on multiple topics, so I bow out of this with you.
So back at ya. GFY. It's probably the only way you get any.
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04-02-2018, 02:53 PM
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#60
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
It's probably the only way you get any.
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Wrong as always.
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