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12-05-2019, 12:22 PM
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#31
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Vancouver Island
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
Horses can be pretty stoic but there are enough who aren't so that if Lasix caused any discernible discomfort, we'd know about it.
The new thing it looks like we're going to be trying is Lasix administration the day prior along with withholding water, just so we can say, "Look! No raceday drugs!" That's just assinine, but this is what we get when people keep making an issue of Lasix even though it's a non-issue.
So will all the anti-Lasix people be happy if we join "the rest of the world" by removing horses' water for long periods of time, the one horsemanship rule that no one otherwise ever seeks to break?
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Would you be happy if they allowed lasix, But brought in out of competition right now to try to resolve uncontrolled drug use in the industry.
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12-05-2019, 03:21 PM
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#32
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clicknow
No diagnosis, no drug. I agree.
Ditto, Thyro-L.
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The diagnosis is the horse is too slow without it.
I doubt 90% of lasix given is to control bleeding, unless it is the owner's wallet that is bleeding.
I say 0 drug on race day, period.
If your horse can't run 100% clean, he should not be running.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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12-05-2019, 05:50 PM
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#33
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
The diagnosis is the horse is too slow without it.
I doubt 90% of lasix given is to control bleeding, unless it is the owner's wallet that is bleeding.
I say 0 drug on race day, period.
If your horse can't run 100% clean, he should not be running.
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That, in a nutshell, is the problem with Lasix. It makes horses run faster. Therefore, horses that don't need it are forced to use it so as not to give up a competitive edge. In no world is giving a high percentage of horses a drug they don't need except to be competitive going to be perceived well by the general public.
The other problem is it causes horses to race less often in my opinion. Races are tougher on the horses and recovery is longer. Just guessing at numbers here, but is keeping 10% of the horses around that need Lasix worth it, or would it be just as good or better for the remaining group (90%) to race much more often? I think they could easily make up for the lost 10% once trainers adapted.
Some rough math...if horses start 8 times a year on average, that is 800 starts per 100 horses. If we lose 10% as bleeders that can't race, we are down to 720 starts. But just increasing the number of starts per year to 10 would see the remaining 90% of horses start 900 times, or an extra 100.
Of course I don't know the exact numbers, but I firmly believe it would help racing in the long term.
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12-05-2019, 06:58 PM
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 310
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The joke around the back stretch, is that this horse is on Lasix, because when we trimmed his hoofs, they bled. The vet would provide the prescription because he is a bleeder. How does any horse from Europe automatically becomes eligible for Lasix, when it has never raced once here in North America? Do they only ship the “Bleeders” over here?
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12-05-2019, 07:16 PM
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 25
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Ban all the drugs
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12-05-2019, 10:04 PM
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#36
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost king
The joke around the back stretch, is that this horse is on Lasix, because when we trimmed his hoofs, they bled. The vet would provide the prescription because he is a bleeder. How does any horse from Europe automatically becomes eligible for Lasix, when it has never raced once here in North America? Do they only ship the “Bleeders” over here?
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I don't think you have to be certified as a bleeder any more to get Lasix, though I guess like most things it varies by state.
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12-06-2019, 08:35 AM
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#37
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob60566
Would you be happy if they allowed lasix, But brought in out of competition right now to try to resolve uncontrolled drug use in the industry.
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I’d be happy if they did OOC, videocameras, raids, you name it. I want cheaters caught and out of the sport.
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12-06-2019, 08:41 AM
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#38
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
That, in a nutshell, is the problem with Lasix. It makes horses run faster. Therefore, horses that don't need it are forced to use it so as not to give up a competitive edge. In no world is giving a high percentage of horses a drug they don't need except to be competitive going to be perceived well by the general public.
The other problem is it causes horses to race less often in my opinion. Races are tougher on the horses and recovery is longer. Just guessing at numbers here, but is keeping 10% of the horses around that need Lasix worth it, or would it be just as good or better for the remaining group (90%) to race much more often? I think they could easily make up for the lost 10% once trainers adapted.
Some rough math...if horses start 8 times a year on average, that is 800 starts per 100 horses. If we lose 10% as bleeders that can't race, we are down to 720 starts. But just increasing the number of starts per year to 10 would see the remaining 90% of horses start 900 times, or an extra 100.
Of course I don't know the exact numbers, but I firmly believe it would help racing in the long term.
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That’s not why they race less often. Trainers want to race. If Lasix was the cause, they’d stop using Lasix. The breed has become weak. That’s why they can’t race often.
We need to remember that trainers can equally dehydrate a horse just by taking away their water. Would we consider that as performance enhancing?
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12-06-2019, 08:57 AM
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#39
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
That’s not why they race less often. Trainers want to race. If Lasix was the cause, they’d stop using Lasix. The breed has become weak. That’s why they can’t race often.
We need to remember that trainers can equally dehydrate a horse just by taking away their water. Would we consider that as performance enhancing?
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It doesn't do any good to race more often if the horse is less competitive. I'm also not convinced every trainer wants to race more often. Win percentage is a much bigger deal these days for many than it used to be.
I would hope trainers wouldn't dehydrate horses just to run faster, but I'm sure some would. I also don't think it would be as effective at cutting weight.
Last edited by cj; 12-06-2019 at 08:59 AM.
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12-06-2019, 10:14 AM
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost king
The joke around the back stretch, is that this horse is on Lasix, because when we trimmed his hoofs, they bled. The vet would provide the prescription because he is a bleeder. How does any horse from Europe automatically becomes eligible for Lasix, when it has never raced once here in North America? Do they only ship the “Bleeders” over here?
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Actually this is one of the less suspicious aspects of it, because they absolutely do ship bleeders here.
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12-06-2019, 10:15 AM
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fager Fan
That’s not why they race less often. Trainers want to race. If Lasix was the cause, they’d stop using Lasix. The breed has become weak. That’s why they can’t race often.
We need to remember that trainers can equally dehydrate a horse just by taking away their water. Would we consider that as performance enhancing?
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There may be a relationship between Lasix and the breed getting weaker. We're breeding our bleeders.
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12-06-2019, 10:50 AM
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Actually this is one of the less suspicious aspects of it, because they absolutely do ship bleeders here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
There may be a relationship between Lasix and the breed getting weaker. We're breeding our bleeders.
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Yes, and yes.
The first statement is common knowledge.
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12-06-2019, 11:35 AM
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: JCapper Platinum: Kind of like Deep Blue... but for horses.
Posts: 5,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitkey
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by Bill Casner | The Paulick Report | 10.08.2019 | 6:14pm
Casner: Studies Show Some Therapeutic Medications Do More Harm Than Good:
https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...age-than-good/
Quote:
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I previously researched this subject about nine years ago when I chose to stop using Lasix and Bute on my horses but I was staggered by the increased volume of human studies and data that showed how derogatory loop diuretics (Lasix) are to bone metabolism and how significantly they INCREASED FRACTURE RATES. I counted 48 studies that ALL implicated loop diuretics with INCREASED FRACTURES.
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--and:
-jp
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__________________
Team JCapper: 2011 PAIHL Regular Season ROI Leader after 15 weeks
www.JCapper.com
Last edited by Jeff P; 12-06-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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12-06-2019, 12:23 PM
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#44
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff P
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Casner’s diatribe was debunked immediately but it’s still being passed around.
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12-06-2019, 12:26 PM
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#45
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
There may be a relationship between Lasix and the breed getting weaker. We're breeding our bleeders.
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So what? Bleeding isn’t what’s causing them to snap their legs off. I’m telling you that in just 20 years our stock could run like clockwork every 3 weeks to a month. Now they’re so fragile we’re constantly having to back off, lay up, have surgery, or retire. Bleeding doesn’t have a damn thing to do with it.
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