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Old 09-14-2018, 10:59 AM   #61
Dave Schwartz
 
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Below is a voice of reason and knowledge.

He's absolutely right on every single count (not that he needed confirmation from me to be believed).

To understand the extremes in poor connectivity, there are still a couple of small tracks that MAIL their charts into Equibase!

Sure, it is an unrelated analogy, but that would mean their tote feed connection is dial-up (because they're in the woods).

Pay special attention to what he's saying about "past posting." Nobody can say that it never happens. But the claims that the whales win because they've got a huge past-posting operation going is just plain laughable.

Hey, Gorrex... Maybe spend a moment and tell them a little about the level of scrutiny that an ADW gets.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorrex View Post
One thing to clarify in the late odds shifts.

Its not just the "last second" money but can be potentially up to 119 (+/- latency) seconds worth of bets in that last cycle.

Tracks(totes) generally aggregate wagers into the pools/odds once every 30 or 60 seconds. 30 seconds is becoming more common, but not yet standard. Depending on if the remote system is in sync with the host it can be up to 29 or 59 seconds behind the host. It is again, more common now for the host to force cycles on the remote but NOT standard.

So worst case scenario is a remote can be sending pool data for 119 seconds worth of bets in the last cycle that is triggered by the post time lock message.

EVEN when in sync you are still talking a full 30 to 60 seconds of wagering in the final push.

Now.. given most bettors don't go to the window until 5 minutes to post and ADWs. How much of that last 1 to 2 minutes of wagering is whales vs average players?

Whales get blamed for a lot that is simply a function of the technology the industry uses. Also lots of "Past Post" claims are false for the exact same reasons.

Last edited by Dave Schwartz; 09-14-2018 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:19 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorrex View Post
One thing to clarify in the late odds shifts.

Its not just the "last second" money but can be potentially up to 119 (+/- latency) seconds worth of bets in that last cycle.

Tracks(totes) generally aggregate wagers into the pools/odds once every 30 or 60 seconds. 30 seconds is becoming more common, but not yet standard. Depending on if the remote system is in sync with the host it can be up to 29 or 59 seconds behind the host. It is again, more common now for the host to force cycles on the remote but NOT standard.

So worst case scenario is a remote can be sending pool data for 119 seconds worth of bets in the last cycle that is triggered by the post time lock message.

EVEN when in sync you are still talking a full 30 to 60 seconds of wagering in the final push.

Now.. given most bettors don't go to the window until 5 minutes to post and ADWs. How much of that last 1 to 2 minutes of wagering is whales vs average players?

Whales get blamed for a lot that is simply a function of the technology the industry uses. Also lots of "Past Post" claims are false for the exact same reasons.
Mr. Schwartz is not the only one who has contested the idea of improprieties related to money movement after the gate opens.
I’ve been a “broken record” on this topic for years! Apparently, some of the so-called handicappers can’t grasp the idea that if that last flash on the tote board is even 60 seconds after the gate opens that the race may be more than half over when this occurs. Yes, and for those who still have difficulty rationalizing this keep in mind that most races cover the first ½ mile between 44 and 50 seconds.
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Old 09-14-2018, 12:40 PM   #63
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[QUOTE=biggestal99;2369217]They don’t ban sharpies at uk tracks, just limit their wins to £1,000

Allan[/QUOTE

Chuckled at this - I'm in the UK and major problems here with trying to get a decent bet on with Bookmakers and am 100% exchange now - recreational punters have been shut down for getting lucky ,most long term winning punters get restricted to pennies and a few pounds - bookmakers have withheld funds from accounts , all sorts of capers - go here for the full story - https://justiceforpunters.org/ - Simon Rowlands - ex Timeform , started this organisation to challenge for reform and bookmaker malpractise has been one of the issues campaigned against - proof here with stories from punters who have felt the impact - https://ukhbf.org/account-restrictio...en-restricted/

From this there has been recent moves where certain bookmakers (only a few to be fair) have come up with a "guarantee" of sorts to lay all bets up to take out a maximum of £500 pounds - some have added conditions - only certain races (usually the most competitive) or only certain times of the day (market moves / weight of money) - Australia has had the same problems in the not too recent past , caused i am sure by the influx of UK Bookmaking companies.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:32 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggestal99 View Post
Why does it take so long? The exchange odds (betfair) are changed are changed almost instantaneously and their bets come from the UK and New Jersey.

Allan
Simple, the tote systems we use (ALL of them) were designed 30 years ago. They are absolute marvels in what they accomplished with the resources available to them at the time.

While its easy to build a system to do base parimutuel calculations that isnt all a tote system is, that's a minor part of it..

If you would like to go to actual real-time wagering on the systems you would need to handle more transactions per second than visa and mastercard combined. It needs to handle a massive amount of endpoints (terminals, displays, boards, etc..)

Then you get into the complexities of each state defining each pool a bit differently. Different tax considerations, surcharges and just layer upon layer of complexity.

Could you build a tote system capable of real-time pool calculations at scale today? Yes.. but its not easy or cheap and tote companies basically get the left over scraps as far as pay goes in the industry.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:03 PM   #65
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Here's the final odds being tabulated for the 2nd at Finger Lakes today:




Quote:
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Simple, the tote systems we use (ALL of them) were designed 30 years ago. They are absolute marvels in what they accomplished with the resources available to them at the time.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:36 PM   #66
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Here's the final odds being tabulated for the 2nd at Finger Lakes today:

Man What a Crowd!

But I think that was about 70 years ago.

That single plug in the ceiling powered the entire system.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:22 PM   #67
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I'll assume its correct and post this without comment on the contention that this is some kind of epic undertaking to have updates more than once a minute




In 2012, we learn, MasterCard handled more than 160 million transactions per hour with an average network response time of 130 milliseconds.




Thats JUST Mastercard





I know you sophisticates play multiple tickets and all, but I betcha it doesn't come to 160 MM bets an hour , EVER


Your turn

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Old 09-15-2018, 04:19 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by green80 View Post
You see morning line odds that are way off everyday, what would happen if they were fixed odds?
I can answer that: they'd lose.

Just one man's opinion.

What would happen if Catholic Boy wins the Travers Stakes?

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Old 09-16-2018, 04:28 PM   #69
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If you would like to go to actual real-time wagering on the systems you would need to handle more transactions per second than visa and mastercard combined. It needs to handle a massive amount of endpoints (terminals, displays, boards, etc..)
Hmmmm...really? Not saying you're wrong, only saying that's pretty unbelievable at first glance.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:39 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Hmmmm...really? Not saying you're wrong, only saying that's pretty unbelievable at first glance.

Didn't you see my post


The contention is absurd


MC alone comes to 44444.4444

per second

Are we betting at that rate?


And you don't need actual realtime as in the stock market. Bets are not dependent on what came before it , and don't reference current price, as in a stock quote.



Batch every x seconds is plenty. Reduces system load by a huge factor.


We were promised fast updates years ago . Nothing.

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Old 09-17-2018, 07:16 AM   #71
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I'll do the actual math later but yes, I suspect somewhere between 25-50k/second would be required for a single system to handle wagering on the biggest events.

In the visa/mc example your talking sustained transaction amounts with a bit of burst at peak hours/days.

In racing we are talking very limited activity except a burst for 2 minutes each race. Any system must be able to handle well over the current known maximums.

And yes.. even when accepting transactions there would still need to be a cycle. It could potentially be sub-second but it could NOT be every wager. MC/Visa don't actually "cycle" except once per day. (Core Banking tech is likely farther behind in many ways than ourselves honestly..) They are better at hiding it and faking it on the frontend though!

---Edit

"System Load" isnt really the inhibiting factor in cycles or the reason you need to have them. Generally speaking system load is rarely ever a factor in anything today given distributed computing and on demand resources. It can get expensive, but its not a limiter technically. The actual limiter is how fast you can retrieve and store data, even in local memory there is a finite limit to how quickly you can lock data (pool total/matrix), retrieve it, modify it, store it and then unlock it again. In a distributed system you have to add in latency on each command and other variables. In reality the system I'm describing would have variable cycles to maintain a minimum but adapt to unknown circumstances.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:53 AM   #72
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Quote:
"System Load" isnt really the inhibiting factor in cycles or the reason you need to have them. Generally speaking system load is rarely ever a factor in anything today given distributed computing and on demand resources. It can get expensive, but its not a limiter technically. The actual limiter is how fast you can retrieve and store data, even in local memory there is a finite limit to how quickly you can lock data (pool total/matrix), retrieve it, modify it, store it and then unlock it again. In a distributed system you have to add in latency on each command and other variables. In reality the system I'm describing would have variable cycles to maintain a minimum but adapt to unknown circumstances.
Love this stuff.

Wonderful beginning for a programmer's discussion. (Another thread, maybe.)

It definitely is about bottlenecks, both in the software but also communications.

Thank you.
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:40 PM   #73
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Bottom line, what we have today, vs what is EASILY achieved with todays technology , are light years apart.



Not sure who to blame, but they have done a lousy job up till now.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:24 PM   #74
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Bottom line, what we have today, vs what is EASILY achieved with todays technology , are light years apart.
Agree completely.

The same situation as handicapping opportunities.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:43 AM   #75
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If you can do or understand Calculus

you're well on your way!

If not, let's play Chess.

I need the points.

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