Will Frank Stronach outlive Santa Anita Park

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Really, Greg?

"Without a doubt the top dirt horses in Socal are far superior to any dirt horses anywhere else."

A lot of hyperbole there, no?

It's a numbers game and it's cyclical.

I dont agree with that statement, I was talking about the turf horses.

No one I know thinks there are good turf horses on the west coast, and I would agree with them.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

No one I know thinks there are good turf horses on the west coast, and I would agree with them.

Neil Drysdale does...he won 4 graded stakes on the turf back east this year with 4 different horses.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Really, Greg?

"Without a doubt the top dirt horses in Socal are far superior to any dirt horses anywhere else."

A lot of hyperbole there, no?

It's a numbers game and it's cyclical.

We're on a roll the last few years. But I agree, the other major circuits will be back.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Neil Drysdale does...he won 4 graded stakes on the turf back east this year with 4 different horses.

He won a couple G3s in Kentucky, a G3 sprint in NY, and a restricted G2 in New York. The G2 winner, Californiagoldrush, looked promising but hasn't raced since. She actually went off favored that day so it wasn't a big surprise.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by cj

He won a couple G3s in Kentucky, a G3 sprint in NY, and a restricted G2 in New York. The G2 winner, Californiagoldrush, looked promising but hasn't raced since. She actually went off favored that day so it wasn't a big surprise.

Californiagoldrush was entered against colts in the Hollywood Derby this past weekend but scratched due to the rain storm that softened up the course. She, and possibly stablemate Toinette, will probably reappear in the American Oaks at the end of the year.

The graded stakes status of those races won by Drysdale belie their significance. Toinette beat multiple Grade 1 winner Rushing Fall in that Grade 3 win, handing the latter her only career defeat to date.

La Sardane scortched 7 furlongs in 1:20 flat in her sprint win and came right back at Belmont to win a listed stakes at a mile in 1:33+.

At any rate, beating turf horses trained by Chad Brown, Bill Mott, Graham Motion, and Cristophe Clement on their home ground is no small feat regardless of the type of race.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Californiagoldrush was entered against colts in the Hollywood Derby this past weekend but scratched due to the rain storm that softened up the course. She, and possibly stablemate Toinette, will probably reappear in the American Oaks at the end of the year.

The graded stakes status of those races won by Drysdale belie their significance. Toinette beat multiple Grade 1 winner Rushing Fall in that Grade 3 win, handing the latter her only career defeat to date.

La Sardane scortched 7 furlongs in 1:20 flat in her sprint win and came right back at Belmont to win a listed stakes at a mile in 1:33+.

At any rate, beating turf horses trained by Chad Brown, Bill Mott, Graham Motion, and Cristophe Clement on their home ground is no small feat regardless of the type of race.

He picked some good spots, no doubt. Still doesn't really mean the west is thriving with turf runners. When is the last time a Cali horse won a BC turf race around that wasn't a sprint? And several have been run at home.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by cj

Still doesn't really mean the west is thriving with turf runners.

I wasn't trying to suggest that. But obviously, they are thriving to some degree in Neil Drysdale's barn, which is more to my point.

When it's all said and done, it comes down to the individual horse and who is fortunate enough to train it...not what region they hail from. Drysdale still clings to his longstanding reputation as a top class trainer, a lot which is due to his success with imports/turf horses. So he's still able to attract owners like Team Valor and Calumet that have that sort of stock.

If Bobby Frankel was still alive and still trained for Juddmonte, if Ron McAnally was suddenly 30 years younger, if John Gosden never left California to go back to England, the west coast would probably be inundated with top class turf horses which if we were really being honest almost invariably come from Europe anyways (note that true homegrown BC winners on the grass are few and far between regardless of training locale).

The same goes for the main track. I know some like to skirt the issue, but simply delete Bob Baffert from the equation of superior CA invaders pilfering all these east coast jackpots and I think you're left with Axelrod and Core Beliefs taking down some Grade 3s at Thistledowns and Parx...

[cj]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

I wasn't trying to suggest that. But obviously, they are thriving to some degree in Neil Drysdale's barn, which is more to my point.

When it's all said and done, it comes down to the individual horse and who is fortunate enough to train it...not what region they hail from. Drysdale still clings to his longstanding reputation as a top class trainer, a lot which is due to his success with imports/turf horses. So he's still able to attract owners like Team Valor and Calumet that have that sort of stock.

If Bobby Frankel was still alive and still trained for Juddmonte, if Ron McAnally was suddenly 30 years younger, if John Gosden never left California to go back to England, the west coast would probably be inundated with top class turf horses which if we were really being honest almost invariably come from Europe anyways (note that true homegrown BC winners on the grass are few and far between regardless of training locale).

The same goes for the main track. I know some like to skirt the issue, but simply delete Bob Baffert from the equation of superior CA invaders pilfering all these east coast jackpots and I think you're left with Axelrod and Core Beliefs taking down some Grade 3s at Thistledowns and Parx...

Of course the people are a huge part of it, but I also think training methods the top guys use are a factor. Dirt and sprinting seem the strength out west, turf routing back east. That can certainly change though as well. We're seeing more and more turf races out west.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Californiagoldrush was entered against colts in the Hollywood Derby this past weekend but scratched due to the rain storm that softened up the course. She, and possibly stablemate Toinette, will probably reappear in the American Oaks at the end of the year.

The graded stakes status of those races won by Drysdale belie their significance. Toinette beat multiple Grade 1 winner Rushing Fall in that Grade 3 win, handing the latter her only career defeat to date.

La Sardane scortched 7 furlongs in 1:20 flat in her sprint win and came right back at Belmont to win a listed stakes at a mile in 1:33+.

At any rate, beating turf horses trained by Chad Brown, Bill Mott, Graham Motion, and Cristophe Clement on their home ground is no small feat regardless of the type of race.

Californiagoldrush is a good horse. The post draw in the Hollywood Derby wouldn't have helped her much. She won a weak Sands Point, but still, she's good. I would imagine she will be one of the favorites in the American Oaks.

Toinette beat Rushing Fall because Daddy is a Legend ran her into the ground very early in the race. Her subsequent efforts proved that point.

His best move all year might have been scratching La Sardane from the weakest renewal of the Woodbine Mile this year. His worst was entering her.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Toinette beat Rushing Fall because Daddy is a Legend ran her into the ground very early in the race. Her subsequent efforts proved that point.

I wouldn't say it was very early in the race. Daddy Is A Legend only engaged Rushing Fall approaching the quarter pole when the latter tried to break the race open; granted, the 2 geniuses riding the horses decided they were in their own private match race from that point on (eerily similar to how the Preakness played out the last couple of years), but Castellano moved too early to begin with.

I'm not sure Rushing Fall's subsequent starts revealed much either. In the Lake Placid, old rival Daddy Is A Legend was boxed in to the top of the stretch, allowing Rushing Fall to get first run. In the Queen Elizabeth, Rushing Fall got to waltz on the lead when Desormeaux decided to give one of his patented "reverse" rides on Fatale Bere (i.e., show speed, look back several times, and await a good spot to ease the horse out of the race). So she's been the beneficiary of a couple of facile trips without facing much early pressure.

Also, in both those starts, as in the Edgewood, Rushing Fall was very keen early. That's a near-180 from her juvenile starts and 3yo debut, where she came from off the pace. Not sure it's a change for the better. If that's going to be her style from now on, there may be a chink in the armor (if the Edgewood told us anything).

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

We're on a roll the last few years. But I agree, the other major circuits will be back.

A roll is an understatement.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

I wouldn't say it was very early in the race. Daddy Is A Legend only engaged Rushing Fall approaching the quarter pole when the latter tried to break the race open; granted, the 2 geniuses riding the horses decided they were in their own private match race from that point on (eerily similar to how the Preakness played out the last couple of years), but Castellano moved too early to begin with.

I'm not sure Rushing Fall's subsequent starts revealed much either. In the Lake Placid, old rival Daddy Is A Legend was boxed in to the top of the stretch, allowing Rushing Fall to get first run. In the Queen Elizabeth, Rushing Fall got to waltz on the lead when Desormeaux decided to give one of his patented "reverse" rides on Fatale Bere (i.e., show speed, look back several times, and await a good spot to ease the horse out of the race). So she's been the beneficiary of a couple of facile trips without facing much early pressure.

Also, in both those starts, as in the Edgewood, Rushing Fall was very keen early. That's a near-180 from her juvenile starts and 3yo debut, where she came from off the pace. Not sure it's a change for the better. If that's going to be her style from now on, there may be a chink in the armor (if the Edgewood told us anything).

You might want to watch the Edgewood again. I think Irad did the right thing, as he had to make Rushing Fall work early, but he went after her long before the quarter pole.

Please don't compare Fatale Bere to Rushing Fall. It would be as crazy as saying Timo was better than Artie Schiller.

[Hambletonian]

There are plenty of good horses in SoCal, but the overall racing is mediocre for the purses being offered.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by the little guy

You might want to watch the Edgewood again. I think Irad did the right thing, as he had to make Rushing Fall work early, but he went after her long before the quarter pole.

It was no earlier than the 3/8s pole (which when sugar-coated is equivalent to "approaching the 1/4 pole"). At any rate, I don't agree that 3 furlongs out is "very early" in the race.

But to be fair, Rushing Fall did respond gamely to the challenge and was only tagged at the wire.

Please don't compare Fatale Bere to Rushing Fall. It would be as crazy as saying Timo was better than Artie Schiller.

I mention Fatale Bere because she was the only horse in a position to put pressure on Rushing Fall as that one dawdled on an uncontested lead. But Desormeaux was in a race (i.e., world) of his own, so she was more of a non-factor than she otherwise should have been.

Unfortunately, we will never know the answer to the question of who was the better of the two between Timo and Artie Schiller. Timo was the better 2yo and I'll admit it was a toss-up at 3.

But Timo was trained by Todd Pletcher as a 4yo and--as you well know--there is nothing to be said about that other than "game over"...

[the little guy]

Timo wasn't even better than him when he got extremely lucky to beat him in the Pilgrim.