Integrity, Why is it important.

[jay68802]

I think all of us have seen the issues caused by a so called "lack" of integrity.

What is the #1 integrity issue? Drugs, fixed races?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...1-of-symposium

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by jay68802

I think all of us have seen the issues caused by a so called "lack" of integrity.

What is the #1 integrity issue? Drugs, fixed races?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...1-of-symposium

Reputation and integrity are your most valuable assets—and can be lost in a heartbeat.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by jay68802

I think all of us have seen the issues caused by a so called "lack" of integrity.

What is the #1 integrity issue? Drugs, fixed races?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...1-of-symposium

When the first horse goes in the starting gate, wagering should CEASE at that moment...I don't care if a horse breaks through the gate or acts up causing a scratch, it doesn't matter as it's just part of the game.

The reason I state this as #1 is.....The horseplayer needs to see there are no integrity issues with past posting, after the start cancelling of bets due to slow/bad breaks, bots butchering the pools with microsecond internet feeds from host track.

This game is about betting integrity....That's what makes the game go round.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

When the first horse goes in the starting gate, wagering should CEASE at that moment...I don't care if a horse breaks through the gate or acts up causing a scratch, it doesn't matter as it's just part of the game.

The reason I state this as #1 is.....The horseplayer needs to see there are no integrity issues with past posting, after the start cancelling of bets due to slow/bad breaks, bots butchering the pools with microsecond internet feeds from host track.

This game is about betting integrity....That's what makes the game go round.

My modest proposal would be to stop all off-site wagering at post time. But I would allow on-site in person wagering with a mutuel clerk until the gate opens.

This would prevent any sort of past-posting fraud while also creating an incentive for people to come to the track.

[ultracapper]

Depends on the person you're asking and their degree of familiarity with the game. People who aren't involved at all will answer "races are rigged". You know, like they see it in the movies.

You and I will probably go down the same path as RR and dilansap, pool shenanigans.

[ultracapper]

I could see a hybrid of the 2 ideas above being acceptable to all. Off site ceases at 0 to post, on site ceases when the first horse enters the gate, as long as there isn't a great difference between the 2. Anything over 45-60 seconds would have the off site whales howling mad.

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

My modest proposal would be to stop all off-site wagering at post time. But I would allow on-site in person wagering with a mutuel clerk until the gate opens.

This would prevent any sort of past-posting fraud while also creating an incentive for people to come to the track.

This is an excellent idea. Which, of course, means it will never happen. But...a great idea, nevertheless.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

My modest proposal would be to stop all off-site wagering at post time. But I would allow on-site in person wagering with a mutuel clerk until the gate opens.

This would prevent any sort of past-posting fraud while also creating an incentive for people to come to the track.

Great idea, let's go back to the 70s.

90% of the money is bet off-track with about 95% (my guess) of the off-track money bet by people who couldn't make it to the track in person even if they wanted to. I am sure that there are some people who prefer to bet with mutuel clerks but if mutuel clerks disappeared tomorrow I doubt that handle would take a huge hit. Upgrade and fix the technology.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Great idea, let's go back to the 70s.

90% of the money is bet off-track with about 95% (my guess) of the off-track money bet by people who couldn't make it to the track in person even if they wanted to. I am sure that there are some people who prefer to bet with mutuel clerks but if mutuel clerks disappeared tomorrow I doubt that handle would take a huge hit. Upgrade and fix the technology.

The reason to require it be with a mutuel clerk is to ensure there is an audit trail.

If you are going to have two different rules about post time, given that there may be dishonest actors out there right now, it is going to create a serious incentive to hack a machine. And even if it doesn't, there's going to be conspiracy theories about machines being hacked if there are any last-minute odds drops.

Saying you have to put cash down with a mutuel clerk makes the system very difficult to game. The players on track are still getting an advantage, because they get the benefit of the last odds clicks from the off track whales, but it is more difficult to pull off a coup with that information.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

My modest proposal would be to stop all off-site wagering at post time. But I would allow on-site in person wagering with a mutuel clerk until the gate opens.

This would prevent any sort of past-posting fraud while also creating an incentive for people to come to the track.

I may not have perfect recall, but I believe Kentucky tried something akin to this years ago. I think once the first horse entered the gate they shut off betting at least at the OTBs. It was long enough ago that i don't remember if they gave on-track patrons until the gates opened. People did not respond positively and I don't think it lasted very long.

At tracks like GP, cutting off OTB/ADW wagering at post time would leave people watching horses circling in the back of the starting gate for five minutes. Some smaller tracks make the start of the race past post time because they want every nickel they can get.

I think people are easily trained on this issue. If you run on time, the bettors will learn to bet on time. Maybe they could have a run-down clock in the corner of the betting screen or the video feeds.

I remember going to dog racing a few times. It would be at least five minutes after post time before anyone thought about putting the dogs in the starting box. I really disliked that system.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

The reason to require it be with a mutuel clerk is to ensure there is an audit trail.

If you are going to have two different rules about post time, given that there may be dishonest actors out there right now, it is going to create a serious incentive to hack a machine. And even if it doesn't, there's going to be conspiracy theories about machines being hacked if there are any last-minute odds drops.

Saying you have to put cash down with a mutuel clerk makes the system very difficult to game. The players on track are still getting an advantage, because they get the benefit of the last odds clicks from the off track whales, but it is more difficult to pull off a coup with that information.

Audit trails can be digital. There have been many times when mutuel clerks have been part of the problem. Really not a solution.

Racing will ALWAYS face conspiracy theories.

Why would the 90% of the bettors want to play a game where the 10% at the track have an advantage? And just who are the people who will be at the track everyday? Those would be the owners, trainers and other well-connected racing people. They have always been perceived as having an advantage from being an insider.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Audit trails can be digital. There have been many times when mutuel clerks have been part of the problem. Really not a solution.

Racing will ALWAYS face conspiracy theories.

Why would the 90% of the bettors want to play a game where the 10% at the track have an advantage? And just who are the people who will be at the track everyday? Those would be the owners, trainers and other well-connected racing people. They have always been perceived as having an advantage from being an insider.

Because the vast majority of bettors are not manipulating pools and if anything, the perception of pool manipulation depresses handle.

And yes mutuel clerks can be corrupt. They also don't want to go to jail.

My system would be very hard to game. An insider trying to manipulate a pool on track could be easily discovered and, if necessary, prosecuted.